robertoart

No; there'll always be neo-jazz. MG So what is the cutoff year for "real jazz" then? If all new musicians play "neo-jazz" then that means at some point the original version ceased to exist and has been replaced by a facsimile. What year did that happen out of curiosity? Shawn. I think the cut-off point is the release date of the Song X collaboration between Ornette and Pat Metheny MG may have other ideas however?

One thing to say about 1973. There were some fantastic album covers! This thread is a great read just to see some them.

No; there'll always be neo-jazz. MG

You guys are all Chicken Little's. There is a/or several Jazz Music Dept.(s), in virtually every city, in every country, in Christendom. Turning out scrupulously trained musicians. As long as that keeps happening (and it will), there will always be Jazz.

Yeah, well don't tell that to jsngry, he seems to be in a disagreeable mood. I think his lunch is repeating.

Mclaughlin's sound is so processed that anything is possible, really.

They'll come out of the woodwork soon enough...hopefully. Say something critical

Someone whose mother was a Little Feet fan perhaps?

Nah. it's funny. Yeah, "I'm Going Home" on "Recorded Live" is a killer track . Almost my #1 reason for going for that album, though the rest ain't bad at all either. But considering tha musical context of that period of the 70s, this tune showed that some still could do some straight ahead kick-ass stuff that really MOVES. RIP. Someone gave me a copy of that back in the day, I always remember those little 1 minute 'interludes' on that album. One of them was like a jazz chord melody vignette. I thought it was cool.

I respect those whose training exceeds mine (I'm an ear player), to the extent that it's appropriate, but as a musician with decent ears, and a longtime jazz listener, I think I'd perhaps put myself in a slightly different gray area than that of a non-musician. Anyway, I think that "getting it" is possible without a high level of training, and I think there's a level of subjectivity in play here. In most such cases, yes, it's fair to offer this kind of criticism. "Oh but this guy is a LEGEND you can't criticize his note choice or phrasing or rhythmic feel, because he's a legend for a reason" doesn't wash. The "he's a legend" part was not the main point, and could have been left out entirely. I think I added that due to the laughable (even if true!) "I can do it better" comment from this guy (talk about something that "doesn't wash"), and just to emphasize the level of respect that someone like KB deserves. The point I was aiming at was that jazz artists (legendary and otherwise) re-harmonize, re-arrange, change keys, change tempos, etc etc, quite freely and often, obviously. In this particular case, is the argument that Burrell (on a recording that still has not been identified here, I might add) may have altered the theme statement only by subtraction, and thereby committed an "error" of some kind? I'm not buying it, but that's just my opinion, and I do think this is subjective. The part about Kenny playing at an "incorrect" (as opposed to non-original) tempo pushes the needle even higher on my nonsense meter. We DON'T know whether KB could have executed it at a quicker tempo or not, even if we agree that it's something worthy of criticism (I don't). Maybe sgcim can confront Kenny Burrell with that question. Thanks for the heavy lifting jimr.

Yes to that about Wes and Mel Rhyne. It's a very personal collaboration. You feel like they were like a big brother and a younger brother collaborating (and I don't mean that in a patronising way), but rather like family. The 'sound' on the first Riverside session is also dense and spacious, and I don't think Wes's guitar tone was ever captured better, at least until the less intimate 'arranged' recordings. You can really listen deeply, like a fly on the wall with that one. The Boss Guitar session is not recorded as intimately, but is still wonderful for the Wes/Mel double team and tunes.

Wow. This is sad news. I was just reading bigbeatsteve's post mentioning the album 'recorded live'. He'll be forever remembered for 'the Woodstock moment'. I also remember a quote in an interview with someone in a guitar magazine, waxing lyrical about the first time someone told him about John Mclaughlin... The guy said to him 'you've gotta hear this guy McLaughlin...he's faster than Alvin Lee Not really the point though is it?

And I'm sure Kenny Burrell is sitting on his couch - with his feet up - having his warm milk in his cup marked 'world's greatest Soul Jazz grandpa' - and reading this thread...thinking....geez I wish I spent another day on the head arrangement of 'that one'!

The second, perhaps. The first looks like a passport photo shot. Anyone who has a guitar in his passport photo is smug.

In most such cases, yes, it's fair to offer this kind of criticism. "Oh but this guy is a LEGEND you can't criticize his note choice or phrasing or rhythmic feel, because he's a legend for a reason" doesn't wash. There's a long tradition of older players coming down hard on younger ones for various deviations from "authenticity" when playing. The big example that comes to mind is inattention to detail to the lyrics of standards, leading to phrasing that sounds awkward or weak when you know the original sheet music. But there's no reason this can't cut the other way too. In this case, the essence of Oliver Nelson's writing isn't just the melody or the changes, it's the voicings in the harmony. That's the reason The Blues and the Abstract Truth is a top-100 jazz recording and every cover of it is just some dude blowing over a minor blues after playing the melody line. So unless KB (or another player) is doing something else that's equally hip on the head, it's fair to ask "why are you even bothering to play THIS tune rather than Equinox or whatever if you're not going to show that you've thought about what made the tune interesting in the first place?" ...adding to say, this is the same reason Larry Goldings's "Hans Groiner" character is hilarious. He's taking things to an extreme by not treating Monk's music with the same pedestrian attitude as 95% of players playing the tunes out of the Real Book. Only the gag in this case is that Groiner has thought very carefully about Monk's music...and as a result has made deliberate harmonic/rhythmic choices that are the exact opposite of what makes Monk's music tick, taking care to iron out every single quirk. Hilarious. Maybe. Sounds racist to me. Does he do it with a German accent? According to sgcim, Burrell 'has' made the attempt to deal with Nelson's voicings, but has not done the tune justice. Accept in the blowing.

Your cover is not showing? Maybe you're right though. . Maybe personally, I just have a highly sensitive paranoid 'smug' meter that goes off in my head. Perhaps anyone mugging for the camera with a happy and content face can be projected onto as 'smug'. So maybe a bit of 'poetic' licence to the term smug. But every time I look at these covers and think of 'smug' I can't help laughing. Especially those Classical ones Now that Mahavishnu/Devadip album. That is the worst kind of 'smug'. It is 'passive aggressive' smug . I have involuntarily sworn at that cover ever since I first seen it when I was about 14. Thank God they marginalised Larry Young on the packaging/project Orrin Keepnews is the winner. I agree. Rieu is 'smug'. Jeez I hope his 15minutes are over. Having never heard of the Mahavishnu album, I found one at a car boot sale yesterday. I had a little chuckle to myself as I flicked past it. The JPEG files just don't do it justice

Was this 'The Judean Peoples Club' or 'The Popular Peoples Club Of Judea', I always get these two mixed up. There was a third one as well I believe. Listening to extended Rock Guitar improvisation by Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin b/w 14 and 16 was my catalyst for instrumental listening. During this time Band Of Gypsy's was on the menu as well. Band Of Gypsy's stayed with me, and seemed somehow more authentic and 'adult', while the others remain forever attached in my psyche to juvenilia. Heard Wes and Blood Ulmer at 17, Grant Green at 18. This connected me to the history of Jazz, The Saxophone and wider Black American Music. Also at the same time, met a slightly older Electric Blues guitarist while doing my painting Studies at Uni. He was a Blues purist who mostly disliked Blues Rock, and through his music collection, I was able to connect the worlds of Blues and Jazz. I was always trying to find connections between the two. I also read vociferously anything I could find about (or from the mouths), of any of the Artists associated with this music.

Yeah, I don't think groove is those guys strong point, although they obviously 'love the groove'. What you gain on the swings you lose on the roundabout. The thing for Zorn though, was that he was able to do his John Patton tributes with Patton in the band I love Zorn's playing on the DIW Patton sessions, and Blue Planet, but it still feels like Zorn's is a musical 'intervention' into Patton's sound world. The live gig with Ulmer and Previte though, is on another level. That one sounds much more organic and fluid. It is one of my favourite recordings ever. Blood Ulmer provides the bridge between Patton and Zorn, which shifts the music into something extra wonderful. Ulmer's playing makes this happen by stealth alone, almost. The fact they possibly did this gig without rehearsal and arrangements makes it shambolic and beautiful.

My first exposure to Organ was through the gentle touch of Mel Rhyne with Wes. It was a great pleasure to explore his later day recordings as well.

Captain Matchbox and Jimmy And The Boys. How could you describe that for American readers Captain Matchbox did some reunion Pub gigs here in Melbourne very recently. I thought to go but didn't. Jim Conway is regarded as an amazing Harp player, but has been stricken with MS I believe. I remember him playing with Brownie McGhee many years ago now. Some old Ignatius Jones hosted Countdown's were recently screened on Rage, after one of the clips (maybe Little River Band I can't remember), Ignatius turns to the camera and says...'plastic music for plastic people'. I cant believe there's a quad version of the Cpt. Matchbox Lp.

Lee Ritenour's version of Stolen Moments sucks.

It also funny how some posters (not many if at all here) have that uncanny knack of entering into a discussion and drawing attention to themselves and somehow making the discourse all about them.