Guy Berger

THIS. Trane's playing on the Prestige Miles sessions (esp the Nov 1955 and May 1956 dates) was erratic and Miles probably didn't want him screwing up the ballads. Once he became a more consistent player, Miles started including him. It's worth noting that at the Nov 1956 session, where his playing was much better, he played a solo on two of the three ballads. And he's a soloist on "Blue in Green", where Cannonball Adderley (himself a fine ballad player) has to sit out. Since we are singing the praises of Trane's ballad playing, let's not omit his magnificent playing on "Dearly Beloved", "Love", "Serenity", "Psalm", "Song of Praise", "Ogunde", "Offering", "Seraphic Light", "Venus"...

I don't think that anyone said that Hill played "composer's piano". That's a figment of your imagination. Leeway did say: "In similar vein, I find Hill's piano playing composer-ly (in the service of the composition), rather than virtuosic (in the service of the musician). Hill was a fine pianist, but the pianism was inextricably bound up with his composing." To me, that sounds a lot like Ellington. I don't think that anyone would say that Duke Ellington played "composer's piano". You're right, I misunderstood Leeway's argument(s). Apologies!

I love Andrew's piano playing; I definitely wouldn't characterize him as playing "composer's piano". I mean, that intro to "Teeter Totter" on OUR THING!

Wow, all this semi-bashing of "Soulville" makes me sad! I wouldn't put this one at the same level as "Meets Oscar Peterson", but the up-tempo tracks near the beginning are wonderful. I also really like the meetings with Hawkins (so good!) and Mulligan (though I agree, this may be Ben at 9/10 instead of 10/10). Most of the other records mentioned here I have in my massive backlog, but haven't gotten around to hearing yet! Also: nobody's mentioned the first studio jam session Granz recorded. While I wouldn't necessarily describe it as Ben's best appearance, he absolutely crushes Flip Phillips. P.S. Another vote for Legrand Jazz! Larry describes this perfectly. Not necessarily a perfect album, but with plenty of individual moments of perfection.

I've been known to complain about flawed BN personnel selections from time to time (Mode for Joe! sigh) but I think Kenny is perfect here. By the way, While I really like Charles's playing during this period - much better than it was 3-4 years later, and for all we know he could have meshed very well with his fellow Chico alum Eric - I am glad Joe was the guy who showed up that day. Anybody game for going up to Lloyd at a concert and asking him about his near-role in PoD?

Yeah! Especially the first track.

YES. It's like the BLUE IN GREEN of semi-avant-garde-jazz.

I agree that Dolphy "dominates" this session as an instrumentalist. I view that as a point in its favor; Dolphy on a good day is one of the most glorious things in jazz, and here we have "Dolphy on a good day" complemented by an array of 5 other great musicians and 5 fantastic compositions.

March 21, 1964 was when Andrew Hill, Eric Dolphy, Joe Henderson, Kenny Dorham, Richard Davis, and Tony Williams went into the studio and recorded this amazing album.

I hate these kinds of crappy semi-science articles.

<Shrug> To me it looks like Penguin are simply applying different grading criteria to different styles of music, with some styles and musicians benefiting from grade inflation. Anybody sufficiently motivated to calculate Bailey and/or Parker's "Penguin GPA" compared to that of Louis Armstrong's or Duke Ellington? I'm too lazy.

I actually don't think the problem is an underrating of BNs (and more straight-ahead stuff), but an overrating of avant-garde jazz and non-jazz improvisational music (on average). They are much, much more generous with ****s with the latter than with the former. Guy That may be. Do you have any good examples of that? IIRC, in the case of many BNs, they tended to review the results as formulaic or pedestrian, so maybe did value the avant stuff higher just for being different. I know I have my own bias in that direction. But I would be interested in egregious examples of overrating the avant-garde stuff too highly. Derek Bailey and Evan Parker are the first two examples that come to mind.

I like a fair amount of his playing, but many of his contemporaries were better IMHO.

Nice guy and I have to say his seemingly indefatigable positive attitude was refreshing on this board, we sometimes get a little too jaded and snarky.

I actually don't think the problem is an underrating of BNs (and more straight-ahead stuff), but an overrating of avant-garde jazz and non-jazz improvisational music (on average). They are much, much more generous with ****s with the latter than with the former. Guy

Was K.B. Blues recorded in 1957 or 1956?

I didn't mean to suggest that I disliked ALL OUR REASONS; I liked it a lot, that's why I was so excited about OItO. But I think the new album is somewhat better. This group has a different vibe live, as many American groups recorded on ECM do.

Just got this new release... I think I like it better than ALL OUR REASONS, despite the fact that it doesn't have anything as WOW as "Song for Balkis". Like the prior release, it's probably more straight-ahead post-bop than your typical ECM album but more ECMy than your typical straight-ahead post-bop album.

Justin, thanks for mentioning the 50 year anniversary. Still one of my all-time favorites. It kind of "ruined" Dolphy's earlier recordings for me.

At least in some cases, they are bred to do so. I have run into plenty of really sweet pit bulls, but also some meanies. One of our former neighbors (a dog owner) got two of her fingers bitten off by one. They're particularly scary because they're so strong. Worth noting that the statements "most pit bulls are sweet dogs" and "pit bulls are more likely to aggressively hurt humans or other dogs than most other breeds" are not mutually exclusive. (But I'd actually guess that the share of meanies is higher for wienerdogs or chihuahuas than for pit bulls.)

What about Gettin' Around? Embarrassing to admit, when I first read this post I mixed up GA (which I think is DG's weakest BN) and Our Man in Paris mixed up, and I was surprised you were so favorable on the album!

Surprised that I didn't post in this thread - maybe I commented in the other one that erwbol posted. 1) Nice that everyone stayed courteous in this thread given the potentially contentious topic. 2) Some of the albums cited in this thread didn't really belong here, I don't think. I mean, Am I Blue is not a very good album [sorry Chewy!] but how many people rate it that highly? And I feel like A Caddy of Daddy might actually be a tad underrated. 3) Overrated, in my opinion [and some of these musicians I love in other contexts] - these are all good albums, just not deserving of the "amazing classic" label that I hear them tagged with sometimes: Maiden Voyage Speak No Evil (Wayne's my favorite saxophonist!) Song for My Father The Sidewinder (my opinion on this one has improved over time, for what it's worth) Midnight Special (great album, but not the equal of Back at the Chicken Shack in my opinion) The Sermon (love the soloists, some very good music, but not quite a classic) Evolution Mode for Joe (maybe doesn't belong here... I know opinion on this is more mixed. Definitely a disappointment relative to Inner Urge) Search for the New Land (love the title track, which probably earned the album its reputation; but the rest of the tunes aren't on the same level) Destination Out! (disappointing compared to Let Freedom Ring and One Step Beyond) Moanin' (quite a few better Blakey sessions out there) Grant Green + Sonny Clark sessions (though the praise for "It Ain't Necessarily So" is 100% deserved) From the Soul I walk back my anti-Lee and anti-Hank comments, I feel like now that the reissue program is dead I'm exposed to less excessive hype and can enjoy their great music for what it was.

My biggest regret about this period of Miles's career (really, 1961-70) is that we don't have more recorded gigs, particularly from clubs (rather than concert halls). I feel like a lot of our "received wisdom" about this music is not entirely accurate.

Side Two, yes, much mojo indeed. Have you given The Sixth Sense time to work its magic? I started exploring a bunch of those mid/late 60s albums over the past few years. I probably haven't given them all the attention they deserve, but they generally range from "good" to "excellent". If somebody is worried (like I was) that it's just "generic BN hard bop", those concerns should be (mostly) set aside.

Miles in Europe is great... though the box version is superior because it has "Bye Bye Blackbird". I think of this recording (as well Cote Blues and the other live recordings from the summer of 1963) as bridging the 1961 band with Hank/Wynton/Paul/Jimmy with the more progressive sounds of the 1960s.