Guy Berger

In retrospect not many other bands of that era did broad-yet-seamless eclecticism as well as Santana. Also, though CS's "brand" came to dominate the band in later years, the early lineup was much more democratic. Collectively these guys were exposed to lots of different music. And they covered Gene Ammons.

Though Santana was obviously influenced by John Coltrane during the early 70s (and drummer Mike Shrieve even more so), I don't think that's the predominant jazz influence I hear in the opening trilogy of albums (1969-71). Jimmy Smith, Les McCann, Gabor Szabo, Willie Bobo, Chico Hamilton, other artists lying in the mid-60s nexus between jazz, pop & latin music - those are the jazz influences that mostly crop up before Caravanserai (though the opening of Abraxas is clearly a nod to electric Miles). Since nobody asked me, here's my scoring of Santana albums I own: Fillmore West '68 (B) Self-titled (A) Abraxas (A) #3 (B) Caravanserai (A) Welcome (B) Lotus (A) Love Devotion and Surrender (B) Borboletta © [sorry JSngry!] Amigos (B) Festival © Moonflower © The Swing of Delight © Blues for Salvador © I have also heard a few of the other albums. Supernatural was fine for what it was - a well-crafted Santanabot. The late 70s albums are pretty dire but often hilarious.

I haven't heard the recording in question, though I do like a lot of "late" Coltrane, but it's certainly possible for it to be simultaneously true that (A) the recording is "not great" (or even "not good"!) and (B) Dyer pooped out a turd. Also - and I can't believe I didn't make this point pre-edit - there is a WHOLE OTHER THREAD DEDICATED TO THIS RECORDING in which people say positive stuff about it, whereas this thread is dedicated to Dyer's review. Ergo your observation.

Is Dyer a board member? I don't understand where this comment is coming from or why it's relevant.

I'm embarrassed for the NYRB.

In general I love bassists so am fond of nearly everyone mentioned on this thread. Great to see people mentioning Jimmy Garrison who I feel is sometimes overlooked relative to the flashier bassists of that era, but is absolutely brilliant. However, I have to say that I am hit-and-miss on Ron Carter (sometimes great, sometimes incredibly boring) and to a lesser degree Paul Chambers (his arco playing sounds like he's sawing away in the garage, albeit in an extremely swinging fashion). p.s. I'll admit Carter's absurd comments on Garrison in an interview by Ethan Iverson are probably influencing my opinions:

Granted, maybe the O-Forums are an unrepresentative sample of people who have actually heard of this project, but describing the negative reactions as "horror" seems melodramatic and straw-mannish. Moreover, none that I've noticed seem to have the premise "OMG THEY DESECRATED KOB".

This is not a coincidence - it's a key feature of the project. (Again, anticipated by JL Borges.) Brian Eno: When you listen to Miles Davis, how much of what you hear is music, and how much is context? Another way of saying that is, 'What would you be hearing if you didn't know you were listening to Miles Davis?' I think of context as everything that isn't physically contained in the grooves of the record, and in his case that seems quite a lot. It includes your knowledge, first of all, that everyone else says he's great: that must modify the way you hear him. But it also includes a host of other strands: that he was a handsome and imposing man, a member of a romantic minority, that he played with Charlie Parker, that he spans generations, that he underwent various addictions, that he married Cicely Tyson, that he dressed well, that Jean-Luc Godard liked him, that he wore shades and was very cool, that he himself said little about his work, and so on. Surely all that affects how you hear him: I mean, could it possibly have felt the same if he'd been an overweight heating engineer from Oslo? When you listen to music, Aren't you also 'listening' to all the stuff around it, too? How important is that to the experience you' re having, and is it differently important with different musics, different artists?

He's awesome and I'm glad he's still with us.

Wish I had been able to go to one of these. As Colin said, hopefully this stuff makes it onto record - and if it DOES end up on ECM, that it sounds like SHADOW MAN rather than the first SNAKEOIL album (though I liked that one too).

I'm a big fan of Ethan's interviews; I've found that I've learned a lot about jazz from reading them. (I also like his playing!) And while I can't say I've agreed with him about every musical opinion he's ever expressed, I was more or less on the same page as him regarding Corea and Peterson. I guess, without "implying certain motivations", it's fair to say that it's a relatively popular (but not universal) opinion around here. Whereas I think if you talked to a lot of non-hard-core jazz fans, they'd probably be surprised that some people don't like him.

It's based on a supposed quote from Leon Theremin exculpating Joseph Stalin for murdering millions of Soviet citizens.

Ha! So someone did tell them about Pierre Menard. Anyway, big shrug here. Fun philosophy exercise and, if they succeeded in their aim, bad music. Save your time and your money - read the Borges story.

Ummmm, somebody should tell these guys that Pierre Menard was a fictional being

Seemed like a kind-hearted, enthusiastic guy. Will be missed. RIP.

You should definitely make this exact same anti-GB snark once per thread-page or every 20 months, whichever comes sooner.

Many, many more Americans will die of the flu than of ebola over the next year.

"Curated" that hodgepodge!? I guess in the same way that Stone Cold Creamery "curates" your mix-ins. (What a pretentious cliche. Does this make Moran a curator now?). The nightclub seating concept is straight from the KC Jazz Club. I can see why Threadgill didn't play a note with this mish-mash. That would have been to participate in a travesty of his own work. OK, we know you don't like JM, but you realize you are giving off a "Get off my lawn, Dennis the Menace" vibe, right?

Indeed, Occam's Razor would suggest that he plays with these guys because... he is interested in their music. We can debate whether the artistic fruits of his engagement with these veterans are positive (on the discs I have heard, it is; maybe elsewhere it is disappointing or a disaster) but the accusations of venality are bizarre. Also, with the exception of Lloyd and maybe Motian, it's more likely that the "exposure benefit" was running from Moran to the veteran artist.

Same here. FWIW I only have one of his discs as a leader (BLACK STARS, which is terrific) and don't really have any plans to pick up the latest one.

Aside from his work with Sam Rivers, I have also enjoyed his appearances with Charles Lloyd, Paul Motian and Bunky Green. Great stuff. The complaints about "he does too much work with older musicians" is an interesting mirror image of the more common kvetch, "jazz musicians don't apprentice enough as sidemen anymore."

I just received a copy - looks interesting. I need to pick up Discovery for its inclusion of one of my favorite drummers, JC Moses. My dad used to have a few Lloyd records, which I tried on briefly as I was first getting into creative music, and they didn't fit. Have not heard his music in quite some time. Discovery is a great, great record. Highly recommended to anyone who like inside/outside tenor playing of mid-60s vintage.

Herbie Hancock "Circle", "Mappo" Keith Jarrett, "Inflight" Duke Ellington, "Cotton Tail" (original recording) Billy Strayhorn, "Johnny Come Lately"

Stan Getz, PEOPLE TIME John Coltrane, OLATUNJI CONCERT

More or less on the same page as Bev. Would rather have either an orchestral work or a solo instrument work. Concertos often seem to be an inferior hybrid.