Big Beat Steve

At least ONE purpose is: Money-making bait for starters or casual listeners that they want to lure into buying more later on.

O.K., so we largely agree there.

Agreed that the borderline areas of what is or isn't jazz, such as the genres you mention, ought to be included at least in passing in any open-minded discussion or historical overview of jazz. As to the depth of coverage, YMMV. However, among the genres you mention, it would be useful to define "R&B" a bit more exactly. I have a hunch what you mean is not what I understand to be R&B in the first place (stylistically speaking, without any real limitations to its timeframe): post-Swing era, mostly pre-Rock'n'Roll and clearly pre-Soul Black Music of the danceable, popular variety and as a subcategory of Blues. I.e. broadly in the way that Tad Richards argues for its recognition as part of jazz in his "Jazz With a Beat" book. I realize R&B is used in different, more recent meanings too so it would be useful to clarifly which is which in any given context. As for how and when the appreciation of certain styles of jazz or artists may change over time, a word on this statement of yours: You may be surprised to learn that Hugues Panassié clearly and outspokenly praised the recordings of Jimmy Smith in his publications of the 50s and early 60s! Yes, him, the eternal "moldy fig" and bebop hater! So would this "seal of approval" have devalued, in turn, Jimmy Smith in the opinions of all-out modernists, I wonder?

Rather an animated discussion in such a brief span of time, so you touched on a subject that either is a bone of contention to many or a log-felt oversight to others. Personally I'd side with the basic statements made by Dan Gould, Niko and Kevin Bresnahan further up in this thread about how things ought to be weighted when the WIDE field of jazz is discussed. But OTOH I have to admit that while I'd never add anything typically "smooth jazz" to my collection there are such recordings out here that when listening to them accidentally you sort of get at least a "jazzish" vibe that is not off-putting. And besides, aren't the limits of this "smooth" genre rather fluid? I'd wager a bet that some of the MUCH more commercial efforts from the output of Wes Montgomery or George Benson, to name just two, would not be a million miles away from what is commonly labeled "smooth jazz" elsewhere. As can be seen from the track listings on many compilation "smooth" or "lounge" or "for lovers", etc. jazz CDs that have been thrown on the market since the 90s. An inevitable trend, of course, in all this is that once such a genre on the outskirts of straight-ahead jazz is admitted into "jazz" then there will be many who claim this now is what jazz is all about and what all jazz fans will have to embrace in order to be with it and this is where all the marketing clout goes under the flag of "jazz". Happened with jazz rock and then fusion in the 70s, etc. And of course this does not sit well with many. Rightly so. Not to mention that there has been quite a lot of music during recent decades that tried to sail under the banner of "jazz" because "jazz" always had a "hip" enough marketable image to it but all that seemed to have been "jazz" about that music was that it audibly was neither rock nor pop nor Black Music nor folk/ethno. So what remains as a tag to paste on? Jazz. For what good? To ACTUAL jazz and to jazz listeners, in particular? So IMO in the end it all depends on how you emphasize a "borderline" subcategory such as "smooth jazz" vs outright "straight-ahead" jazz in the overall presentation. And this is where I think many jazz listeners, fans and collectors willl sternly disagree in accordance with their personal preferences and preconceptions of what is jazz and what isn't. It seems to depend on what kind and degree of "crossover" (which means "dilution" of jazz to hardcore jazz followers anyway) you are prepared to accept. I remember the outcries or horror by many purists when Neo-Swing was all the rage througout the 90s (before abating to a trickle that goes on to this day but is under the radar of most). Visibly this kind of "crossover" cross-pollination of swing-era jazz, R&B and lounge pop with various styles of rock (from rockabilly to punk) did not sit well with many. Though Neo-Swing never claimed to be what "jazz is all about now" (contrary to jazz rock and fusion way back then ...). I always found and still find quite a bit of it enjoyable and entertaining WITHIN my jazz listening (when the time is right ...), contrary to all that fusion stuff, for example. In short, different strokes . .. and a debate that probably can never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.

Nothing really to add to what has already been said. Like others I have a countless number of his LP productions on Prestige, Onyx and Xanadu. Thanks for all these productions , cover art and all the other contributions. A life well lived. RIP.

This looks like another re-re-rerecyled reissue for incurable upgraders. I'm extremely selective about what Sinatra records I feel I need in my record collection anyway, so I for one will stick with my reissue by Dutch Capitol (Vol. 4 in the "The Frank Sinatra Story" LP series).

Here it's not so much that there are many CDs that I really cannot locate anymore or definitely have misplaced, but it's more a case of not immediately knowing where to look for them at any given moment without searching in several places ... I ran out of my well-arranged CD storage space (holding 600 CDs in a wall-mounted IKEA rack) quite a few years ago, then moved all my R&B/Blues, Rockabilly/Roots R'n'R and Country/Western Swing CDs into separate racks and boxes (different versions, from IKEA too, unfortunately discontinued years ago) sorted within these styles and periods. So the remaining main problem now (a "luxury problem", I know) is how to maintain some systematic order among my jazz CDs. With a fairly large number ariving over the past 3 years, up to now these have been in several different places dictated by when I bought and shelved them (those shelved more than, say, 4-5 years ago take up more than all the initial space available in that wall-mounted 600-CD rack). To re-sort them in a way where everything is better locatable, I recently ordered (at Amazon) stackable boxes with lids that hold 100 CDs each (something like these in the link below). The first four have been allocated as follows (more will be ordered to expand these or for other styles): - Swing + Chronological Classics CDs (most of my CCs are Swing anyway) - Cool & West Coast Jazz - Bebop, Hard Bop & other Modern Jazz - European jazz https://www.amazon.com/BCW-Storage-Box-Lid-Compartments/dp/B0FJMB9W4S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2DY5ELNGHVCI8&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.jqNPgE4P-SICP3pgKKLF51o1noljJSSdtsBTcy_v1J9PKE6jRDsdWQJwGQOPhQei_BAsPG-s-wGgA8XfjTTs7mjNDzsR6ch0s9oRUeu2k3Z9U1s83oTrdKPIMVfEuMQuaqqqW7x9_NwuQwh0wI6BXimqxJvBvf566Xm7Rwqz2XGJ2D8YzeZ7R-jpvJQI1JqTmxp4ap4n0Z92ZKEIXZTnCo-_6gb9ydQkH63uDaXUkXp8aE6MX4BkpWHPWAtprYr_-7sZHxE2SBU-bz7CLDHXHrP0XlCOMK2hUU6HHCKKSLA.YscaQC8trYqtxt0c5xNrQHmG_RvSHiBAm29c7ZjZsyI&dib_tag=se&keywords=Protected+cardboard+CD+box&qid=1771429532&sprefix=protected+cardboard+cd+box%2Caps%2C177&sr=8-1 Eventually I'm afraid there will be no option but to rearrange all the CDs so that those that I tend to spin most often will go into the 600-CD wall rack and the others (except most box sets - whether CD or LP-sized - which are separate again) will go into the 100-CD boxes. No more to-and-fro searching, then, I hope. And I'm still battling with myself over whether to reallocate space freed on shelves in the adjacent room specifically for my "vinyl overflow" to accommodate at least certain CDs after all.

Thanks very much for your help, John! Your scans arrived and have been printed and copied on suitable off-white paper to match the tint of the book's pages to make them almost undistinguishable.

Very nice! Too bad this apparently has not been pressed on one of those "live Basie" vinyls (or CDs??). No trace in the Basie discographies of any "Shake Rattle & Roll" with Leon Thomas following the "I needs to be bee'd with" that Basie announces at the begining of this clip. Tunes like "Shake Rattle and Roll" must have been the repertoire played by Basie while he provided the backing for the Alan Freed R'n'R tours and concerts for some time in 1956/57.

It's also collector-friendly that that Discogs entry lists the "orginal" (re)issues of the recordings included in that box. So everyone who has at least a certain number of "live Bird" can check for overlaps and won't feel as bad when he can't or won't afford the Discogs prices.

This is one music book that marked my early collecting days in the 70s and taught me a lot about the Blues. (Yes, I realize this book is outdated in some way now, but I find it still is fine.) Later (in the 90s) I bought a secondhand copy at Mole Jazz in London (1969 edition by Barrie & Rockcliff, London - 1978 printing) . However, as discovered later, my copy has two pages missing (p. 107-108). Not that much reason to worry, I figured, because back in 1979 I had bought a German translation of that book (a paperback publication that alas includes only a small part of the photos of the original publication, but at least the missing text segment was there to refer to). But flipping through the book again now, it's high time at last to try to complete that book. So my question is: Is there a forumist who owns this book (preferably a late 60s/early 70s edition) and would be kind enough to mail me scans of the missing pages 107-108? If so, please send me a PM. From what I have seen elsewhere and remember from the book I perused in the 70s, the pagination and layout remained the same through all or most of these early (US or UK) editions and printings from the late 60s and early 70s, and the total number of pages is 176. Just for orientation and in case there are doubts about the layout: Page 109 has one photo of Kokomo Arnold and two of Memphis Minnie, and the main text starts with "Perhaps it was there that he developed his use of the falsetto ..." Thank you very much in advance!

I did not spring for the V-Disc small group box because I already have many of the sessions by those artists that I find most interesting on this set, but looking at the track listing again now, the only conclusion I see is that Marc Myers must be one of those jazz purists who does not appreciate traditional or early revival jazz all that much. I am no completist for that 40s revivalist traditional jazz either (which contributed to making me pass), but calling these recordings "flat, uninteresting"?? But if I had to choose between the small group and the big band set, I'd take the small group set because with the big bands the "already there" rate is even significantly higher (though some intriguing items in between are tempting ...).

+1 !! I am aware of Phil Moore and have a few 78s by the Phil Moore Four (on Victor and Black & White) but was not really aware of the existence of these recordings (and their somewhat later reissue on Verve). By all accounts Phil Moore must have been a relatively big name throughout the 40s, but he is one of those who ended up being almost totally forgotten because he was ill-served by reissues in later years when that period became "collectable".

Well, how am I to know objectively? I realize my scoop made in early 2025 (see that other thread) can't be beat, but it shows anything can happen somewhere, sometime outside eBay and Discogs. (And the lowest selling price shown in the Discogs statistics was below $50 after all.) And while the lowest current Discogs price you indicate at least is less than the "price when new", it probably - as in the case of Mosaic sets - all depends on how urgently someone wants that item. And how he values that (excellently done) book. Because 135 EUR for 4 CDs "plus a book" as such still is quite steep indeed, of course.

Just for the record to those who might rush out to pick up this individual CD from that "Jazz Connoisseur" series: This very CD (i.e. its exact contents inside the same facsimile cover of Vogue LD 025) also is included in the "Jazz on Disques Vogue - The Perfect Collection" 20-CD box set. (For once Vogue really made good use of the space on this CD - there are several CDs by other artists in that set where playing time is a bit skimpy) These 3 LPs are a very good way to cover the basics of Bechet's French period. There is so much from that era out there (in so many different repackagings and combinations that invariably overlap) that I for one wouldn't want to attempt covering it all. Re-reading this thread (and the other you resurrected now ) I see I've got most of the Bechet bases covered, though I'm no Bechet completist. Those 25-some LPs on my shelves cover a wide spectrum: early Bechet, Victor/RCA, Panassié Sessions, New Orleans Feetwarmers, King Jazz with Mezzrow, Blue Note, and then France including the Salle Pleyel and Olympia concerts and Brussels 1958, etc. And last year I picked up the Riverside "In Memoriam" LP of 1960 that reissued all 8 tracks from the 1940 Bechet -Spanier Big Four session. This is another milestone in his discography (so far I somehow only had part of it on an EP). And yes, I still marvel at that "Sidney Bechet in Switzerland" 4-CD box and book I scored about one year ago. Anyone who finds this at a halfway affordable price can do no wrong in picking it up.

Re-my above post: Simce you are wondering about the transfers and just in case you would have asked: I listened to the first few tracks of my Coral LP. Though my copy is definitely not NM the sound is bright and clear and fine. At least to me, and on my non-high end equipment, and it does not sound "remastered to death" either. Just for comparison I played a few tracks from Vol. 2 (1928-30) of the CBS "Complete Duke Ellington" twofers. These tracks do have more background noise (varying between hiss and pops and crackles, apparently in accordance with the source material) and generally sound more "vintage" or "20s-ish" ("muffled" would be too harsh a word, though). Perfectly listenable but I wouldn't use the word "bright" there.

(excerpt from a Columbia "trade foldout" for Cugat's records, 1943, illustrated by Jim Flora)

What I know about Ellington's discography isn't nearly enough to give a full answer (and squeezed among the Victor and Columbia/Okeh recordings as they are, those early Brunswicks are hard to keep on overview of anyway), but there were a couple more reissues in the early 60s: I have this one (definitely mono too) on German Coral 97012 LPCM, released in 1959: https://www.discogs.com/release/4439629-Duke-Ellington-And-His-Orchestra-Dukes-Best It was repressed into the mid-60s (identical covers and labels, except that no printing date is given in the small print on the back cover of later reprintings). And there was another volume (97015 LPCM, released in 1961) which I do not know (but will watch out for in the second hand special offer bins now ) : https://www.discogs.com/release/3986364-Duke-Ellington-And-His-Orchestra-Duke-Ellington-And-His-Orchestra I've never heard or seen the UK Ace of Hearts reissues. I suppose the four volumes on French MCA in its "Jazz Heritage" series (catalog nos. starting with 510.xxx) use the stereo reprocessed mastering of the 60s U.S. Decca reissues? I only have two of the four French MCA Jazz Heritages and the stereo effect doesn't bother me unduly but I do see the point of those who object.

Didn't "Cugie" make his music as palatable as possible to the U.S. mainstream audiences in the first place?

This made me curious, of course. In case you're familiar with the respective LPs, am I right in assuming that this version is very similar to the recording of "Begin The Beguine" (which might be described as a "Tone painting and exercise in dynamics on Begin The Beguine" ) recorded around the same time in 1948 that is on Golden Era GE 15014 and Hep LP 3?

Plus XANADU for its reissues of jazz from the 40s and 50s that complement Onyx very well and expand their scope (in addition to much more recent recordings) - as well as HighNote for the CD spinoffs of several Onyx vinyls. But since neither Onyx nor Xanadu are active anymore (or so it seems even in the case of Xanadu) I hesitated mentioning them.

According to some who ought to know, Abbey Lincoln wouldn't quite agree with your impressions, it seems. 😕 It's been discussed here, too - some 20 years ago.

Which I understand made him pass for a moldy fig in the opinions of certain "progressivists"!

Re- the observations of Mikeweil, Niko and Ghost: From what I have observed, all this is hit and miss and you have to be lucky to find the right buyers at those record fairs. But it does happen. Somehow with all the purchasing I have done during the past 2-3 years my "stock" of jazz records for sale increases despite all I've sold. Sometimes it is a matter of me upgrading (such as an LP that can go because I bought its contents and MORE on a 2-LP album), sometimes because in the end I do already own this or that record I just brought home. Usually the latter is either a case of a pressing with a totally different cover but exactly identical contents, or a matter of me saying "what the heck" because the records were very cheap and I figured it just was not worth the effort to go back home first to check and then return downtown again. Overall what I have is way too little for a record fair (which are nothing to enthuse about in my area anymore anyway) so I display them at my fleamarket stalls. I also find that pre-1950 vinyl moves rather slowly, and from what I see in the Special Offer bins of the few remaining local record shops this is a general trend. But even modern jazz from the 50s and early 60s is not as hot as I had figured (neither on CD). Though my prices are very affordable, I'd say. Or maybe my offers are too "obscure" for the general jazz layman listener - e.g. a Brew Moore LP from his Danish period has been sitting in my crates for quite some time by now. Same for some Uptown CDs. (BTW - Uptown would be another favorite "boutique label" !!) So, to forestall idle inquiries, last year I decided to mark the divider panel in the crates (that shows what is inside): JAZZ - SWING - BOP - COOL No Free, no Jazz Rock, no Fusion! This has gotten me a few smiles and laughs ... As for pre-Swing Era jazz, this has always been only a small part of what I try to sell, but amazingly last year, over the course of 3-4 fleamarkets, I sold off almost all of it! Most of them to buyers who looked like "40" was quite a few years away. It is an amazing experience if a couple picks your Bennie Moten LPs from one crate and you then have to advise them that that other Bennie Moten LP that you have in your "Swing" crate (for better exposure of the artist) and that they pulled out too offers no new contents over what they just picked from that Oldtime Jazz section! As for "boutique labels", quite a few of my records are on such collector labels, but most buyers at such events do not seem savvy enough to appreciate them. Though amazingly one Paul Howard Quality Serenaders LP on the The Old Masters label I really had bought from the Special Offers section by mistake (because I did not remember all of its contents are on that RCA LP I have by this band) was snapped up at the first fleamarket I took this record to afterwards. So, overall it all looks indeed like a niche market within the niche market of jazz - even modern jazz from the 1945-65 era that goes somewhat beyond the "usual suspects" of the big names. To me it seems like it is not the lack of interest as such among a generation of (relative) youngsters but the lack of interested younger listeners who are prepared to explore a style of jazz DEEPLY and go significantly beyond the usual suspects. And of course this hurts collector or boutique labels, in particular. (But maybe that deeper interest will mature as they get older - but if the collector labels wil then still be around except in the secondhand sections is anybody's guess. )