Big Beat Steve

Agreed on the Fats Navarro (and Bird, of course) alternates, such as on the "Prime Source" Blue Note "paper bag" twofer. Aural comparisons of these often are very interesting and instructive But basically I think Gheorghe has a point - not all alternate takes by all artists are overly instructive listening for their differences, and sometimes the compilers of reissues really go overboard, particularly on box sets. And having not just two versions (master and alternate) but a total of 3 (or even 4) versions of the same tune one after another - and this for several tunes in a row - can not just get boring but annoying, particularly if you have almost endless strings of such "triplicates". Particularly on vinyl sets where you cannot just press the Skip button as with CDs. Still beats me why they could not put all the master takes in the original session order on the first disc (or discs) of a box set and then the alternates (in the same order) on the remaining discs. At least in SOME cases. I just cannot imagine that there is a clear majority of buyers/listeners who regularly sit there throughout entire box sets, listening raptly to multiple alternates of multiple tunes in a row, gravely nodding their heads and mumbling something to the effect of "yes, hearing him play the altered 17th instead of the diminished 9th in bar 19 of that alternate take, that is the bees knees!" 😁😁 Not to mention the case of reissues filled to the brim with false starts, abortive runs, studio chatter, etc. where you get an LP's full of such snippets that in the end amount to complete recordings of maybe 4 or 5 tracks, not more. Quite OK if you find these dirt cheap in the special offer bins but otherwise? Because listening in like that tends to wear thin after a while (or even fairly soon), even if it's candid enough, such as on that Sonny Boy Williamson LP where the track preceded by (lengthy) studio chatter was marked "not suitable for airplay" on the cover because the man made no bones about the fact that he considered one or several of those present at the session just a "motherfucker"!

But the very discussion goes far beyond a simple act of "acquisition". There is more to it - white or anti-white or whatever. Besides, the title of the topic refers to an actual statement by another author that is quoted and DOES raise the question hinted at in the title of this topic. Regardless of how anyone feels about it. Why hush it over in the title? Everyone can have his say - it won't mattter to the publisher/Editor of JT anyway, I guess. This much from an onlooker who has no horse in this race.

@JSngry: OK, so Discogs was incomplete in what they listed as Japanese vs (undated) US reissue pressings? You are referring to the undated US pressings with the "T" trident label that are listed there? (As opposed to much earlier pressings with the trumpeter label) @Pim: All the better, as long as Japanese shipping costs won't sour the deal for you.

Of course, but that was then. And on the one hand the Japanese reissues probably were inexistent in Europe, whereas TODAY and even through the internet I guess they most often are overpriced for what they are. So if you are going to settle for a reissue anyway the other series (particularly the Frnech one from the 80s) might be better buys - at least for the "Yurpeens" (like Pim, for example).

Yes but if you look beyond the original 50s pressings then it seems to me that VINYL reissues of most of them only existed as Japanese pressings (starting as far back as the 70s). Which (realistically speaking) makes them irrelevant (and/or uneconomical) to most of the "normal" collectors with normal budgets. And the "Charlie Parker Story" LP series on Verve won't fit the bill either because it is selective (3 volumes only) and does not focus exclusively on the sessions that Pim prefers.

Are these the ones with the painted portraits on the covers? The Verve Select Double series? I have several of these. The Bud Powell one was called "The Genius of Bud Powell", and then there were "Lester Swings" by Lester Young, "Sixteen Men Swinging" by Count Basie, various JATPs and so on ... But not usually (or not always) straight reissues of ENTIRE original Verve albums. And apparently not to be confused with the British-produced "Verve Re-Issue Series" twofers (which e.g. had their own "Lester Swings" album, but not with quite the same contents). What I most vividly remember from the 70s are those Verve twofers of the "Jazz History" series with those garish, horrid covers that combine the US flag with all sorts of objects - candles, light bulbs, miner's lamps, gloves, flower pots ... Another all-time low in cover "art"work silliness that was so rampant in the 70s. These were just samplers. I have some of these, including the one on Charlie Parker which has a "flagged candle" on the cover. I bought this one back in my early collecting days in the 70s because - yes, the series was priced nicely, and besides, at the time this was about the only Verve reissue on the market. The French "Bird on Verve" LPs did not come until quite a bit later, and the "Definite" series had already disappeared (I cannot recall having ever seen any copies of this series in the shops in the 70s, at least not in Germany). I still have this "Jazz History" Bird twofer because there still are 1 or 2 or 3 tracks on it that I do not have on other Bird Verve LPs (admittedly I am no total Bird Verve completist).

I tried a search as well but it seems like what others already said is true - the SERIES of Verve LPs out there include everything in chronolgical order but include strings and latin along with the "pure bebop" sessions. Here are two that I am aware of: This one reissued by French Polydor in the 80s: https://www.discogs.com/label/762066-Bird-On-Verve And this one - reissued in c. 1966, with German, French and UK pressings existing: https://www.discogs.com/label/1183964-The-Definite-Charlie-Parker But no doubt there were other comprehensive reissue series. Do you have access to the "Bird Lore" discography by Piet Koster? As far as I can see the reissue listings (vinyl etc.) of each track in this book are way more comprehensive (but maybe too much so ? ) than whatever is in the online Bird discography on jazzdisco.org. I got a secondhand copy of Part I (the actual discography) not long ago but admittedly did not bother to pick up Parts II and III (which "only" include listings and cross-references of the 78/vinyl issues and of CDs and really are overkill in their endless degree of detail).

In case you INSIST on an LP , the Decca big band sessions from that Classics CD can most conveniently be found here: https://www.discogs.com/master/1092962-Roy-Eldridge-And-His-Orchestra-Swing-Along-With-Little-Jazz And the WNEW Saturday Night tracks habe been recycled on many 70s budget labels, e.g.: https://www.discogs.com/release/4123929-Various-Saturday-Night-Jazz-Session https://www.discogs.com/release/2268120-Roy-Eldridge-1947-WNEW-Saturday-Night-Swing-Session https://www.discogs.com/release/9797581-Roy-Eldridge-Flip-Phillips-Mike-Colicchio-Al-Casey-Eddie-Safranski-Specs-Powell-Mel-Tormé-Fats-Nava https://www.discogs.com/release/3470450-Fats-Navarro-And-Allen-Eager-Saturday-Night-Swing-Session

Now that's one topic I very rarely look up.

Pee Wee Russell as seen by George Wettling (and as published by Eddie Condon in his "Scrapbook of Jazz"): 😁

Really?? It was the third post in THE BELOW thread as recently as last June: Which also included the (excellent) "Kind of Blue" cartoon, BTW. 👍

Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra: The Bad Humor Man / John Silver (Bandstand LP 7120) But actually it absolutely ought to be in the opposite order: "John Silver" first, "The Bad Humor Man" next.

You mean he'll go right to hell?

No doubt, judging by the posts here. But as far as I can see this is the "MUSIC discussion" section of the forum. And as far as I recall other non-music artists have been discussed in that Misc. section before. For good reason and nothing wrong with that. Regardless of the merits of non-music artists in non-musical fields of their activites.

NCIS is on TV here too but I am sort of underwhelmed by the series. Too many of this type of series on TV, probably ... Certainly a sort of clutural clash ... I did notice David McCallum among the cast there, however, and his "elder authority" character does have its interest ... But I keep thinking of him above all as the actor from the "Men From U.N.C.L.E." period, mostly because at the time I really started reading in my primary school days in the 60s the Corgi Toys scale car from that series popped up in the toy car catalogs I devoured, and the name of that TV series (promoted in the catalog) stuck forever. Though I only caught a scant few episodes at the very tail end of its showings on our national TV (to the best of my knowledge it never was rebroadcast later). And of course I did not really grasp the contents of the episodes at that tender age yet and the names of the actors did not mean anything until later. But the groundwork had been laid.

And here was me wondering what jazzman (or musician) THIS was ... Wouldn't this obit thread be better placed outside the MUSIC discussion section and in the "Misceallaneous-Non-political" section? Or did he record some obscure 45 sometime in an ill-fated attempt to jump on the "celeb goes singer" bandwagon, like other sportsmen did at other times too?

Thanks for alerting me, TKK. Hard to imagine it's already 4 1/2 years since we discussed this. But I cannot contribute much to the UA albums as I don't own or know these albums. So I'll just sit and see what everybody (else) has to say and wait and be on the lookout (till copies come up somewhere, maybe). BTW, anybody else notice that the Youtube nerds who uploaded the "Very Best Of" S-F tracks (that were linked here in the 2019 discussion) saw fit to use the cover art of the "Bix & Tram" LP (of all Jim Flora artwork ...) for display? No doubt something more directly related to S-F AND Jim Flora could have been found?

The Eddie Costa Quintet LP (with the baby buggies on the cover) on the Interlude label is a reissue of this Mode LP 118.

I do have that one too. Bought shortly after the "Sure Do Pull Some Bow" CD. As for your other questions/remarks regarding early rural black/white cross-polliation (either white blues or black country), I think Allen Lowe is THE person to answer this in detail.

Re- the "Tiger Rag" novel: I cannot compare because I don't know the author you mention. I suggest you read up on its "storyline" online (to get an idea of what to expect) and then just pick up a copy if one comes your way at a price you are wiling to invest, and then you read this strictly as a novel. And then let your mind wander while reading and just wonder "what if it actually happened that way and we just have no way of knowing or proving it?" Just one "teaser" to give you an idea of what forms early Black music documented on records ALSO took (this compilation includes jazz and blues in the stricter sense but also goes beyond it): http://www.oldhatrecords.com/cd1003.html

@Allen Lowe: I now realize I ought to have mentioned your earlier compilations (including your "Turn Me Loose ..." CD set and book) for traces of aural pre-jazz documents that may indicate what developments may have been brewing in various other places at that time. @Rabshakeh: Given your puzzlement about Buddy Bolden, the brothels and other stereotypes of events and places surrounding early jazz history in New Orleans and that we will never be able to document a lot of what may have happened there or elsewhere in the musical history leading to the birth of jazz more than 100 years ago, may I suggest you get yourself a copy of "Tiger Rag" by Nicholas Christopher? Of course it ALL is purely, totally fictitious, but I think when you read it you will find yourself wondering "A lot of this reads like it could have happened that way, so what if it actually did happen that way after all?" We'll never know one way or another ...

Agree with John L. Particularly with regard to the lack of recorded evidence until the end of WWI. No doubt that there were developments going on elsewhere that went in a similar direction. Because this probably this was a "thing" that "was in the air". But they are undocumented and largely unexplored. OTOH, even in N.O. there seems to have been a lot going on that remained undocumented. I remember there was a book about early "big bands" (i.e. large-sized orchestras that were NOT marching bands but played for dacing, probably a lot were ragtime orchestras) that were active in the New Orleans area at about the period of the "birth" of jazz or even its immediate pre-history. The total of those orchestras known to have existed was about 100 and not one left a recorded trace. Yet someone managed to fill a book with their history.

I listened to Straight Ahead and The Queen Bee. Maybe it is those "Mancini" overtones (which i certainly had not recognized as such - which isn't saying much) that did not exactly put me off but made me wonder with a feeling of irritation? Could it be that it is fairly "standard" effects and patterns also heard elsewhere that are being reworked here?

OK, so let's take this one step further. I did listen to two samples of tunes on YT (investing more than 4 minutes of "my life" ) and it confirmed that i might well pick it up when the occasion arises. However, while it is not bad at all I am not going overboard either. Somehow it differs from the somewhat earlier 60s sounds of the Basie band that I am familiar with in a way I cannot quite put my finger on. To my ears it somehow sounds less "totally unmistakeably Basie". The section sound (i.e. of the full band outside the solos) sounds strangely and overly familiar for and among big bands from roughly those years. Either I've heard these tunes before (in settings where the band was not identified) or the sound and charts have been copied or recycled over and over again elsewhere - but who was first? I hope it was Basie.

I cannot recall having ever said I'd not pick up that particular record. I would, though certainly not at top/full price (which is MY decision as there are other priorities to cover too). It's just a case of being able to sit and wait until the right occasion presents itself. And in fact I did check Discogs later yesterday to see which pressing would be the most likely to surface here, and I did listen in briefly to a few YT samples. So, sorry to say but the tone of this "4 minutes out of your life" "suggestion" is not something I'd have expected from you. No need to try to "convert" the basically inclined in THIS way. 🤨 Going further back in time, I see. 1944. Available most conveniently for vinyl nerds on Circle CLP-60 and CLP-130.