Big Beat Steve

I have this OJC cd - 23 tracks in all: Thanks Chuck! Must search that out ... Apparently a CD that passed me by at the time it was released. TIme to be able to listen to this whenever you feel like it and not just via some original 10" somewhere else.

O.K., I'll throw a hat in the ring too. One (early) Prestige artist that seems to have been bypassed consistently in vinyl times was JOE HOLIDAY (and this despite very comprehensive Prestige reissue programs through the decades). And offhand I am only aware of a Fresh Sound CD that couples some of his Prestige recordigns with his Decca LP. From what I have heard I find his recordings quite intriguing (including his jazz-cum-latin excursions). Maybe his style just wasn't fashionable enough on its own terms in the jazz periods that followed but surely he deserved a bit more reissue "rating" than being ignored totally?

Like I said, it was a quote and certainly needs to be seen in the context of its times. Just because it is often interesting to see how some initial judgments come about. They say a lot about the impact certain musicians had at the time. No matter what judgment posterity eventually settles on. Hence my question.

@Larry Kart: :) As it happens, I am just listening to Woody Herman's First Herd (that news item about the discovery of that Franklin expedition shipwreck made me want to spin "Northwest Passage" again ) and in fact the last tune that just came up was "Bijou" (before I saw your post). For all the qualities you mention in that solo, by certain yardsticks, some of Harris' solo there may indeed be considered not that tonally "delicate" compared to other players of the time (relatively speaking), so I do see the point some may have made back then and your explanation makes sense. In fact some of those "vulgar" comments may have been related to JATP appearances of his where he may have gone all out even a bit more (I don't really recall). Anyway, thanks for your asessment.

Talking about those trombonists and their stylistic subtlety (or non-subtlety), where would Bill Harris fit in, then? I have read contemporary (50s) sources (jazz mags/books) where his playing is described as "vulgar". How about that? How would such a judgment come about, comparatively speaking? (Note that I am not judging, just quoting )

While I agree with you generally, you're way wrong about this. If you look at the stuff Chuck Nessa (and if he can't be described accurately as an 'avant garde listener', I don't know who can be) likes and thinks important, you find ALL sorts of stuff. And he's not the only one here; Larry Kart, Jim Sangrey, John Littweiler have all got very broad taste and can point out important stuff from beyond the avant garde. Hot Ptah, too, now I come to think of it. And Ubu. And Moms Mobley. Oh, Alan Lowe, too. Oh hell, I bet all of the avant fans here are WELL aware of the history of jazz and can identify important prior stuff they love to bits. (And some of them can even identify important soul jazz recordings they love to bits ) MG Wow .. this thread moves way too fast for me ... there you are off the web for an hour or two to take care of other matters, and pow ... 2 more pages of posts ... Anyway, MG; I really did not want to refer AG-inclined forumists here but to the avantgarde audience "at large". My general impressions there (you get into contact with all fields of jazz fans over the years) are summed up in what I wrote above ... So maybe this explains that. As for avantgarde and BN and why BN may have signed up artists from that field: Couldn't it have been a case of just staying in the limelight there after all? Avantgarde may never have sold much in objective quantites but this segment of jazz made the headlines. Collecting jazz for me has always included jazz magazines and I find it very instructive to read up on specifc matters in CONTEMPORARY sources and not just through historians' writings. And from what I have seen in various European jazz mags (of which i have fairly comprehensive runs up to the mid-60s) is that as the 50s turned into the 60s, the jazz fields that got coverage increasingly focused on three areas only: Soul jazz, avantgarde and rediscovered old blues heroes (field recordings etc.) from way back ... This was what many headlines and an increasingly large share of the record reviews were made up of. All other fields of jazz were increasingly limited to reissues and the timeless heroes like Ellington etc. Cannot say to what extent this was profoundly different in the US media, but maybe this may explain after all why you probably just had to get on the avantgarde bandwagon too if you wanted to be covered comprehensively in the jazz press and therefore remain in the headlines of the jazz public? Just wondering ....

See everybody, that's just about what I meant in an earlier post. This attitude of being focused on what and whom one is "supposed" to like in order to (rightfully? duly?) like jazz per se ... So what about somebody who is a definite, hard core lover of oldtime jazz and embraces it in all its facets? What would or could Miles (from any period) (or Trane, for that matter) do for him? And STILL this person would be a definite lover and fan of "jazz" as such. Just like those to whom anything prior to hard bop is old hat can (and do) claim the same label for themselves too. In short, just shuck anything that sounds like what one is "supposed" to like. There IS no '"must do" beyond one's favorite STYLE(S) of music (including jazz). WITHIN one's favorite style(s) - yes, that's what recommendations are for. But "must hear" BEYOND that spectrum? Nah! Most avantgarde listeners would not accept any oldtime/classic jazz "must hears" either. Jazz is and remains a wide field and one man's meat is and remains another man's poison. Which does not prevent anybody from exploring other fields of jazz if he himself feels like it - but "must" expore? Nonsense. BTW, referring to liking or not liking "Miles", which Miles anyway? I'll state frankly that I have a lot of Miles from his Capitol Birth of the Cool band through most of his Prestige quintet albums (and whatever there was on other labels during that period) and I like and enjoy them for what they are, but beyond that the only more "recent" Miles albums I have are Sketches of Spain and Seven Steps to Heaven (both of which I got more or less accidentally yet find them interesting enough to listen in sporadically - but no, I don't even own KOB! It would be around anyway anytime I wanted to OWN it). And whatever "Miles periods" came AFTERWARDS ("Electric Miles" or fusion in particular) just don't do it for me. So ....?? (Yes, this span of Miles platters incidentally more or less corresponds to the styles and periods of modern jazz I primarily enjoy - a wide enough field as it is anyway, but if the rest of Miles just is of no appeal to me (going by what I have heard), then who is to pass judgment on that, unless he thinks himself a "superior" jazz listener - which of course first of all would tell a lot about those who pass judgment in that way ... No offense meant, but those points just had to be made

You mean they are just as shot as my copy of "Something Else"?

It's soul jazz which is 'primarily aimed at entertaining black adults' and it wasn't my intention to express a view that there was lofty concert artistry in any of the live soul jazz albums I've come across, which I feel is music to accompany the party. It's a pity none of those live albums include material such as 'Happy birthday to you'. That would be more authentic (By the way, that's how Bob Porter defines - perhaps too tight a word for what he means - soul jazz. I don't disagree; I seldom disagree with Bob Porter on soul jazz issues ) MG I did get you right. What I meant to say (tongue-in-cheek and deliberately exaggeating a bit) was that I have a feeling there are quite a few out there who evaluate jazz from that period in terms of strictly artistic accomplishments in a concert setting and tend to use this as a yardstick for how "modern jazz" is supposed to be appreciated. Straightforward entertainment and "having a ball "with the jazz platters? Some might frown indeed ... No quite appropriate in my opinion. Case in point, some time ago I picked up a copy of Cannonball Adderley's "Something Else" as a VERY early pre-Liberty deep groove pressing at a local record store clearout sale. The record plays relatively OK and is listenable but clearly the vinyl is shot and has seen some heavy party abuse (no greying, wine-sipping, head nodding "serious" collector would leave scratches and scuffs like that on a record ....). But then it cost me the princely sum of 2 euros ... And actually seeing this record has provided enjoyment to many partygoers in its day makes up in "authenticity" for whatever audible scratches (and that skip in one place) are embedded in the grooves now ... Enough of this digression, though - would not want to get in the way of the avantgarde discussion that has evolved since you replied to my post which I saw only now.

Oopps, had half forgotten about this thread. Thanks for the pointers to other books (some of them I have, some of them I have heard of and might be tempted), but what I was SPECIFICALLY aiming at was to get some feedback about the two books I mentioned in my opening post. So ... to bring things up to date, I have since bought both of them. The Dicky Wells "Night People" book is a nice read as far as I have advanced (maybe one third, it was one of my holiday beach reads but due to circumstances it has since been shelved again, to be picked up later). I like the way he tells things, and I must say I find the book a more enjoyable read than Count Basie's autobigraphy (with Albert Murray), for example, where I feel the principle of leaving the words "as said by the man himself" has been a bit overdone and the "authenticity" and "casual" tone at times turns into a bit of aimless rambling that can get on your nerve if you read the book in huge bits (which I did, due to HUGE interest in the subject matter). Not that I would expect each and everybody who writes his autobiogrpahy to be as witty and articulate as Terry Gibbs, for example, but still ... Dicky Wells strikes the perfect middle ground for authenticity and readability IMO. About the "A Golden Age of Jazz Revisited 1939-42" book - weeellll .... I did buy the book (minus the 2 CDs as I have about 90% of the music anyway and the price gap between the book with and without CDs was a bit steep, at least with Amazon.de). I am part way through the book and the jazz events of the time and the social backgrund are presented clearly, insightfully and very much to the point. I.e. the book gathers together quite a bit of information in one place that otherwise would have to be gleaned from a lot of different sources. I am a bit less impressed by the record reviews - they are OK and do provide useful information to complement the tracks but to those (like probably most of us forumists here) who've been around the block a lot with that music, quite a bit of it reads like "stating the obvious". Also, some of the (uncaptioned) musician photos used to illustrate listsings of "landmark" events in jazz in the introductory sections to each chapter are odd, to put it mildly. The layout looks like the photos and the texts correlate - but they dont't (though they could have if a bit more common sense had prevailed in the selection of the photos). A minor point but something I find unnecessary and irritating. I like the book for what it is but it clearly is a book aimed at those who are not yet diehard colectors of jazz from that period but want a to get a solid introduction. It is not a book that I can't resist devouring from cover to cover in one go but one I will gladly pick it up again when I feel like it. I had half expected (or should I say "feared?" ) this book to be one that does not break much new ground (wishful thinking that somebody might unearth truly NEW information on the swing era and make a compelling book of it ...?) so this was one reason why I would have been interested in reading the views of others here (who have their own considerable experience with and knowledge of jazz history) about that book ...

I like your down-to-earth approach to the subject, MG! In discussions like this I often have the impression people let themselves be guided far too often by what "one is SUPPOSED to listen to and appreciate" in order to "appreciate the magnum opus of the label/artist for its ARTISTIC value" instead of just admitting that this or that record "just doesn't cut it for me" and standing by it (after all one man's meat is another man's poison only), regardless of whether that record may have been elevated to 5-star status by somebody somewhere sometime. But "music primarily aimed at entertaining black adults"? Be prepared for some raised eyebrows about how lofty concert artistry can possibly be dragged down to such a "gutbucket" level.

That must be the 2-LP "The Indispensable" series on RCA Black & White. I dont have the track listings for these, but they're probably not quite complete (hence "indispensable" only) but quite representative and well-compiled.

Well, of course all five tracks are on the second of those two French RCA 3-LP sets featuring Hamp's complete RCA sessions (Historical Recording Sessions Vol. 2, RCA PM 42417) but admittedly that's no SINGLE disc. though you might be able to find a secondhand copy somewhere at a price not beyond the average price of a SINGLE new disc. The four "key" tracks (i.e. the master take of When lights Are Low only) were on "Hot Mallets No. 1" (RCA ND 86458).

My thoughts exactly. I have those complete RCA recordings on the two 3-LP sets from French RCA and really cannot recall that many vocals beyond Ring Dem Bells either - and whichever there were, they do sound like "casual" vocals indeed. No harm there.

I hink a lot of pressings are coming out of Eastern Europe and Russia, so in that sense there are a lot of new sources of vinyl. Very very variable quality. Knowing a couple of niche-market vinyl producers and issuers, I can partially confirm that. New pressing plants (geared towards those niche markeds, including small pressing runs) have sprung up in comparatively recent years in Germany (NOT Eastern Europe) and the Czech Republic (Eastern Europe), and they are delivering good quality. But you have to select your plants carefully, so I am told.

Zweitausendeins circa 1980? No, Zweitausendeins always was mail-order in the first place and they had no local shop back then (and the one they had later - and which closed down a while ago - always was minuscule). But we had several fairly large and well-stocked record shops (incuding one - even larger - with 3 outlets) that even attracted (collectible and niche-music-minded) regular customers from far out of town.

Mindblowing! The best record shops over here were a bit smaller but not THAT much smaller ... but the overall atmosphere was very much the same. So this does bring back memories. And hey ... most of the staff at the local #1 secondhand record shop even TODAY look like they bought their garb at the same time and place (and have kept it ever since) where those Tower employes bought theirs ... Only the record prices aren't the same anymore ... not by a LONG shot!

A subject that's indeed been covered well before - under all aspects imaginable, so I should think. It is beyond doubt that the idiocy of Hitler and his cohorts have caused a brain drain to Germany in many (if not all) areas of science and culture that this country has never recovered from.

I think I know what DJM LPs you are thinking of (those I've found among mine are from the 70s and carry a diferent address): However, there MUST be a link between PRT and Pye: My copy of the UK-pressed Vogue twofer of "The Bebop Keyboard Masters" (VJD 574) from 1980 carries the PRT logo in the (copyright) fine print but a note "Distributed by Pye Records", and an address at Great Cumberland Place in London. My copy of the "West Coast Scene" Vogue twofer (VJD 536) from 1977 has the same layout of the fine print but says "Pye Records Ltd" outright (including the logo) under the same address. My Gene Ammons reissue mentioned above (reissue dated 1984) has just the PRT logo and a different address but still the same layout of that fine print. So PRT somehow must have been a Pye offspring. Though overall those Vogue twofers had a better presentation (liner notes, etc.) than the Chess ones I have seen.

They were a pretty common sight in the UK cut-out racks of the mid-late 70s. Indeed. I bought the Gene Ammons twofer from the above series (compiling most if not all of his 78s) secondhand at Mole Jazz in the 90s. But I do remember this one (and possibly others from that twofer series) was around even in German record shop bins not long before that but I had not grabbed it then (so made up for that at Mole). The typeface, design and layout of the "fine print" (VERY fine print ) of the label owner (GRT) on back of the cover looks a lot like credits on earlier Pye label vinyls to me. Any connections, maybe?

Good for you and buyer. It's a great book with interesting topics (I have the French edition).

Yes, brings back memories ... Thanks! Though I had no idea that this chap is only 5 years ahead of me - most all the regular staff at Mole Jazz always appeared very much more advanced in years to me ...

Euuuhhhh .. Captain Howdy: About that "believing that a jazz icon had renounced jazz" ... It CAN happen, you know ... (and NO satire) Heard of legendary jazz scribe, critic, promoter Joachim Ernst Berendt (a major name in jazz and in the crusade for getting jazz on the map this side of the pond, and never mind if he does not rate in the US, though his "Jazz Book" was acclaimed even there, so I've heard, not to mention his groundbreaking "Jazz Life" with William Claxton)? In many of his latter-day publications he threw out jazz (and what it stood for) lock stock and barrel (getting the impression that he disowned his former works would not have been an exceedingly far stretch), said that (my paraphrase) "swing is irrelevant and immaterial", world music is what it's all about and just "tones and sounds" are what now counts. Pretty far removed from even a WIDE definition of the understanding of jazz. And yet ... the world kept turning and jazz kept on being played. So ...??

Thanks for the link to that article, Paul! Most enlightening!

Not exactly the huuuugest discounts when it comes to a real "sale" ... Well, most of THAT music has been around the block a zillion times in reissues, so ... well ... but though I am not one too impressed by alternates either, I am half-tempted by the Herman set for the volume of alternates and new ones in that particular case. BTW, can anybody comment on the previously unissued tracks (not the alternates of previously issued tunes) from a halfway objective point of view - major, inexplicably unreleased enhancements of the opus of the man or just "nice to have" additions that are not really essential?