Big Beat Steve

No, why? He came along AFTER Gullin, didn't he? So he is automatically less important? And/or less of a baritone saxophonist? My .... who says he is less important? Do you actually, really expect EVERYBODY here to rattle off the same who's who of baritone saxists of close to 100 years of jazz all alike? Each and everybody names his personal favorites of the styles of jazz he prefers and listens to most intently, not more, not less. There may be lots of deserving musicians who are off the radar to some but it is not always the same musicians that are off the radar (luckily ...). Remember the recommendations that the thread starter asked for always boil down to very personal matters and judgments. It is not (or should not be) about finger wagging of "you MUST listen to this (or that) one or else you are nowhere ..." It is only the SUM of all recommendations that fleshes out the picture. Besides, how many smiles does one have to put up to show the tone of a message? So PLEASE, relax, OK? ... ;)

Considering the extreme and numerous reactions this "other" thread has triggered, I wonder where you have been these past few weeks, Hardbopjazz?

No, why? He came along AFTER Gullin, didn't he?

Why hasn't anybody named LARS GULLIN yet?? Re- Serge Chaloff, do NOT overlook his "Boston Blow-Up" LP! Re- Sahib Shihab, no matter what some may think of that label, the 2-CD set "Complete Sextet Sessions 1956-1957" on Fresh Sound is a fine roundup of his work from that period IMHO. And then there were his Danish sessions with Brew Moore, etc. And another plug for Ernie Caceres and Leo Parker.

Happy birthday from me too. Enjoy the music and the musical discoveries when you make the rounds at all the jazz venues.

Tell me, all of you .. When you make such fantastic (and numerous) buys over in Japan, how do you get all the stuff home? No doubt packing it all in your luggage might make that luggage largely overweight (and expensive)? Do you send parcels home to your own address? Would that be worthwhile financially? Assuming that you do not suddenly have somebody on hand who happens to move from Japan to Britain right now and still has space available for odd'n'ends in his 20-ft container, right?

As "things WRITTEN on LPs" that we have picked up, do "things stamped or glued" on these LPs count too? One example ... years ago I picked up a clean secondhand copy of Mose Allison's "Young Man Mose" on Prestige (period-correct Metronome pressing) and according to the stamping on the back cover it was previously owned by Hans-Wolf Schneider (HaWe Schneider to those in the know) of Spree City Stompers fame (well-known 50s-60s German revival jazz band of whom HaWe was the leader) and active as a jazz impresario. Just like other contibutors here, I also have quite a few of those where previous owners have carefully annotated each title on the back cover with their individual Down Beat-style rating of stars or dots, and in at least one case (which I cannot locate right now) one earlier owner was displeased enough with part of the LP that he wrote out the words RUBBISH next to one or two tracks!

Yes, so do I - if I hear people (whose tastes I know to be similar to mine) talk about stuff that arouses my curiosity. Has cost me a bundle just reading here through the years ... Let's not make too big a fuss about that above statement anyway - I was just puzzled about how I was to give anybody a recommendation if I don't even know in which direction his tastes actually run. And like I said earlier - in the case of the bebop output on Dial (beyond Bird) I'd find it really hard to clearly rate any one recording/leader much above the others.

Wha ....?? I would have had an exceedingly hard time recognizing Lars Gullin in that 70s video! Ouch ... But really nice playing.

What would make me wonder is what makes Dyer think Coltrane lacked conviction (seeing that he was so "passionately intense"). Which makes me, in tun, wonder what purpose this Yeats statement could serve there at all. Because to me it seems, then, that not only this "Yeatsian oppostion" is false. As a very minimum it seems irrelevant in THIS context and Dyer's turnaround of intensity (allegedly) covering up conviction would be just as off. I am not nearly familiar enough with Trane to pass any sort of judgment but I'd believe anytime that he was very convinced of what he did or attempted to accomplish and believed in it. Regardless of whether this particular performance would rank high among his musical achievements or not. A dangerous thing to do, making such sweeping generalizations for the "general public" (who just might pick up that very statement as a "fact" to be repeated elsewhere in a most inappropriate way), and I can understand that this is galling to those who believe in the music and know the finer details of it.

Having recently updated my run of Ellingtonia from that period by grabbing several of those CBS VINYL twofers first issued in the 70s (and now having more or less the entire run of that album series), how much is there on that set discussed here that was not on those twofers (NOT counting alternates of which there already are quie a few on those twofers anyway)?

Maybe because the "accepted attitude" in some circles was/is that it is a strict NO-NO for HIM to comment on that music? Or why that name calling? As for why no uniformly strong case seems to have been made for that particular performance in this debate, maybe some Trane experts will weigh in? That said, citing Yeats and Adorno, etc., is of course B.S. in ANY such writing. Unfortunately it is an attitude that we over here had had to become accustomed to when it comes to "advanced" (German) scribes writing about "advanced" (not even necessarily free) forms of jazz. That eternal search for respectability and higher levels of art; I guess ... Slinging buzzwords around trying to accomplish that "goal" seems to be ineradicable.

To start with Pops Foster, his SLAP BASS workout with the Luis Russell Orchestra is stellar anytime IMO and has certainly set the framework for many others who followed in that playing style (regardless of the fact that there have been some (critics??) who considered slap bass the ultimate in technical NON-proficiency in playing the "bass fiddle" ) (Different strokes for different folks again ...) As for King Ubu's above list - hey, where's Scott La Faro? (Hey, you don't mean to say ... ?? )

Interesting to read you confirm my impressions, Larry. So it's not "only me".

Happens often in circles of the "learned" who are all out to publish, publish, publish ... Use specific buzzwords that will get you (fairly easily calculable) write-ups and acclaim from a certain circle of critics who will then acknowledge your intellectual insight ...

Well, if you insist ... With all due respect, I beg to disagree about Jamil Nasser. He is one of those who have managed to mar my listening experience here and there, specifically as an accompanist to Al Haig ("Strings Attached"). What's all that droning, booming, resonating bass background that distracts from the lead voices and at times even tends to collide with Jimmy Raney's guitar lines? Not always very sympathetic IMO. Granted that times and styles have evolved since the 50s but what's all that busybody bassing around when, as an accompanist, a somewhat more subordinate role is called for. Where are Ray Brown, Red Callender, etc. when it is all about getting a steady pulse and swing going? There is a time and place for everything and all this droning and resonating may be fine and quite appropriate in other settings, but there?? Or is it all the fault of what recording mix was fashionable in those days? No doubt Al Haig himself felt differently as he used Jamil Nasser often, but still ... Gary Mazzaroppi (with Tal Farlow) is another one in the very same vein (even more so, sometimes crowding out the guitarist) who makes it a bit of a displeasure searching out latter-day recordings by artists who I like immensely. No harm and insult meant, but the way they play there, those bass players just "get in the way" IMO. BTW, talking about dropping names - no interest in Curtis Counce?

OK, thanks. Suits me fine anyway. Following up a full title (if really interested) on your own instead of just relying on the convenience of a clickable link should not be too much of an effort for anybody.

I wouldn't have bypassed that either. Congrats!

"Late life" is a very relative concept anyway. Some reach a phase of maturity (or of an urge to "move on") earlier, some later. And evolution in one's overall works therefore differs. However, the above rattling off of names of clasical composers from the 18th/19th century misses the point considerably IMO when they are supposed to be compared to the relatively early death of John Coltrane. Please have a look at the average life expectancy of the overall population in the respective countries/regions first before comparing the "early" deaths of those composers to the early death of someone living in the midst of the 20th century. Not sure if all this was always seen as that "desperately short" by all of the contemporaries of those composers to the same degree that later generations of lovers of the music mourn the short lives these celebrities led. Times WERE different ...

Of course. And I did. But it still remains that what is best to one fan of the music isn't necessarily best to another one. Preferences do differ so if you don't know somebody else's precise preferences ... ? That was (and still is) my point. Particularly in this case where the style and quality of the sessions are so close together in every respect. In short, IMHO the only appropriate answer to such a question is: If you have not only gone to the trouble of getting all the Bird on Dial for BIrd's sake but if you have got it because you truly are into bebop, then get ALL the other bebop sessins on Dial too. They merit it all. Of course I realize there may be some inadvertent Crow Jim going on in such discussions or recommendations, based on the premise of "bebop is black music so McGhee got to be vastly superior to Berman", but honestly, I for one don't buy into this.

Not wanting to stir up an age-old discussion, but just to understand this policy: Assuming we are talking about this kind of releases, would it be OK by the board policy, for example, to crearly write the artists, the entire disc title and the label name and catalog number but no link and then possibly indicating which mail order/online seller we are talking about ? Which incidentally would be fine with me and after all it should not be an unsurmountable task for ANYBODY to follow such information by AGAIN typing the information via any search engine or on any website in order to locate that disc. Cannot possibly be so that any effort to be made beyond clicking on a link would be considered too awkward for anybody, right?

How is anybody ELSE to know in order to tell YOU? We all have the discographies to check what there is to start with ... Seriously ... I, for example, knew all along I like 40s bebop so anything by the artists from that field and falling into that time bracket has always been a safe bet for me and whatever I wasn't able to hear beforehand I bought unheard and just just going by the artist(s) and recording dates and cannot say I have been disappointed anywhere. But that's a decision to be made by everyone himself. Because I was prepared to go all out in the field of 40s bebop (to an extent I would not have cared to do in 50s/early 60s hard bop, for example). but how is anybody to know how far anybody ELSE is prepared to go? Pretty much impossible to guide anybody SAFELY, then.

Of the non-Parker stuff, what do you think is the best, and where would one get it? Who would be able to answer THAT adequately, not knowing your tastes and preferences in every detail? Dexter Gordon is fine, Howard McGhee is fine, Sonny Berman is fine, Dodo Marmarosa is fine, The Hermanites are fine, etc. etc. The Dexter Gordon and Dodo Marmarosa tracks may be most "seminal" ones in certain repsects but all of them deserve exploring by anybody interested in the classics of bebop jazz. Impossible to choose (select) really by way of recommendation. I

I wouldn't contradict you - I was just referring to the 45s of the 50s and early 60s when quite a huge percentage (mostly indie labels, true ...) looked rather uninspired and like hack jobs.

Considering the state of the (non-)"art" of the 45s in the 50s and early 60s, they weren't doing that badly with that special font of the label name IMO. To put it more bluntly, label design and "artwork" or 45s was largely in a "dark age" in the 50s and early 60s, at least compared to the 78 rpm era and the 45 rpm era starting from the mid- to late 60s. , some notable exceptions such as Roulette or Chess notwithstanding.