Big Beat Steve

It might be interesting to see what other unlikely items there were in the Verve catalog if you look closer. Maybe they had their share of oddball releases in the 60s too? Bert Dahlander and Toni Harper (to me at least) aren't that unexpected (but then I knew about the Dahlander LP for a long time) but cocktail piano or Spike Jones? I wonder what hand Norman Granz had in selecting THESE?? At least as far as I am with the recent Verve story book they don't quite fit into the narrative..

It does seem somedays like almost anything was thrown onto vinyl back then (almost like the Youtube of its day). I'd probably listen to Skal though. Say whatever you want about latter-day Toni Harper and never mind Spike Jones or cocktail piano, but don't give NILS-BERTIL DAHLANDER short shrift. His "Skal" album was quite a valid jazz album in its own context of European expatriates working in the US (feat. Counce, Howard Roberts and Feldman, BTW) - and rated 3 1/2 stars by Down Beat, FWIW. The cliché-laden cover art and album title more speak volumes of the immature, INANE brains of the A&R men and marketing smartasses of the AMERICAN label that issued the LP. Not an isolated case, though.

Ernie Heckscher and Verve sure looks like an exceedingly unlikely pairing. Looks more like one of those "Music to Groom your Mustache to" etc.background music platter series that the major labels did in the 50s. As far as I can see at a relatively quick glance only the Toni Harper cover made it into the "Verve - The Sound of America" book. Too bad for Bert Dahlander (and Rex Middleton too).

Ha, sounds very much like the FINCH BANDWAGON I used to listen to on AFN on Sundays here in my early collecting years in the second half of the 70s. How much (or how often) Jack Teagarden, Lawson-Haggart, "The World's Greatest Jazz Band" etc. and other "middle-ground" bands and artists do you need? Sure, he exposed me to Big T and Lawson-Haggart first, but even to a youngster interested in jazz from that period this "play it safe" programming can become repetitive pretty soon if you keep your ears open and soak in everything you hear everywhere. I tend to agree with your DJ commentaries, though providing complete personnel for a small combo might be feasible but not for a big band program, and a 25-minute track on the radio might be VERY hard to fit into ANY format. Though it CAN be rewarding ... I remember a Dexter Gordon feature radio show I caught in the early 80s, and it had a lengthy killer jam session tune from the war years also including Duke Ellington and Ben Webster (and a CRAZY Stuff Smith). Somehow that jam tune never left the back of my mind but it took me well over 10 years to get the recording until I finally came across a copy of the Ben Webster "Ben and the Boys" LP (Jazz Archives JA-35) where the tunes and the line-up read like this might be IT at last - and it was ... a lengthy version of "Honeysuckle Rose" that starts in the middle of the proceedings! @jazztrain: Very interesting post summing up both sides as well as some pitfalls - thanks!

Talking about records you wouldn't imediately think of as being on Verve, how about BERT DAHLANDER - SKAL (MGV 8253) ? e.g. as seen here: http://diskunion.net/jazz/ct/detail/JZC20121221-100 Coming to think of it and while googling that release, I came across an older topic on that subject and a (totally forgotten) post of mine from 6 years ago on this very forum so I might as well quote myself to elaborate on the "obscure ones at Verve": "What about BERT DAHLANDER's "SKAL" LP (Nils-Bertil Dahlander, in fact, or "Bert Dale" for the linguistically lesser talented Yanks - BTW, anybody know of any reissue sources for this?), or what about that TONI HARPER LP (been a long time since she'd been a child singing star) or how about that obscurity by REX MIDDLETON'S Hi-Fi's (nice LP, BTW)? (And there were many more jazz-tinged vocal albums on Verve who did not make it to everlasting fame - probably about as many as on Bethlehem) Or how about LYLE RITZ on ukulele? And you even got SPIKE JONES on Verve. And who TF was that ERNIE HECKSCHER orchestra?"

I used to listen to a lot of jazz in my early years (post-1975 and onwards quite a bit into the 80s), both programs on more historical jazz styles, new releases by new and older artists, and even lots of collectors' programs diving deep into 78s. I learnt about a lot of musicians, recordings and styles (up to noting down whatever tunes and artists struck my fancy in notebooks, some of them coming in useful for later purchases or searches, though I almost all of the time failed to note down such key info as the EXACT recording dates (beyond the year) or key personnel. I also recorded a lot onto cassette tape and still play some of them in my cars every now and then (wobbly or not ... ). But in more recent times or now? IF ONLY there were many jazz radio programs of substance left, at least there are none to speak of on the FM radio stations that can be easily listened to here (I sometimes tune in to web radio, but not that often). Some late-night token programs that have remained seem to be more or less a medium of boosting upcoming or recently-completed festivals, even if the lineup is a full crossover into pop. Cannot recall having heard (or heard of) any regular FM radio programs such as the Night Life program (by Ghost) that I listen to via web radio from time to time with great interest. They USED to exist but that was a long time ago ... And what there still is that tries to present jazz that way on public radio today seems to me (on those relatively few occasions that I listened in) to be geared strictly to jazz newbies. One of the few remaining outlets where something for the actual jazz niche audiences might exist here are local "alternative" stations that you can either listen to in a very local FM area or via web radio. Interesting stuff there but since this is VERY "alternative" radio those who do the programs often clearly are more enthusiasts than radio pros. The programming is intriguing and broadens up horizons but the hosts are often not up to snuff, with some of them being just plain clueless. They love the music but don't have the background or knowledge to get the info about the music and musicians across with substance and, above all, authority and credibility. They could take a lesson from Ghost of Miles (sorry, David, admittedly I have not tuned in to your program yet).

Gilles has stood the test of the years well - he hasn't changed much since I was there in 2000/2001 (when I was there the last time in 2007 somebody else subbed for him that day). Always nice talking to him indeed - we got into talking too on thos efew occasions I was at his shop, and somehow I still regret I just could not take the time off to drop in a nearby bistro when, after having left his shop maybe half an hour before but still making the rounds at other shops in the same corner, I passed in fornt of that bistro and he saw me across the window and motioned to come on in where he was at a table with a friend for lunch. Unfortunately I could not because I had a VERY tight schedule of places (yes, mainly shops! ) to visit in Paris during that brief stay there (but it certainly would have been a very nice chat ...).

Following this topic, the impression I get here as an outsider looking in (what I have by Bill Evans are sideman dates) raises a few questions: Could it be that overall (given his stature and reputation, in particular) BE's output as a leader was uncommonly erratic? Was it a question of being THAT beset by his personal demons?

Sample it along with Bill Crow's recollections of that Goodman tour to Moscow, then ... (Available somewhere online ...)

The entire article is pointless. Comparing today's vinyl sales with those of the heyday of vinyl is totally irrelevant. Whoever praises the fact that now the 1-million mark is exceeded can and should only refer to the fact that vinyl has been proclaimed as being dead for years and YET the sales figures are on the up. Although only in a very minor way, and vinyl will certainly never become anythign like the #1 medium for selling music again - ever. It will remain a niche product and nothing more, but considering that it is supposed to be dead it is remarkably alive after all. So the whole premise of that article only shows the author has not grasped the essence of the vinyl debate as it is today.

Wouldn't that rather be a grapefruit??

Like I thought ...

What you do you mean "Peeling? An orange?"? You dont peel oranges? You never eat them? Just squeeze them to drink the juice? Or cut them in half and suck them out like they are wont to do in certain parts of South America? Cultural clashes ...?

They are now at CD 468 so that gives you an idea ... I have a hunch I know which ones you are talking about and they are not that recent. Uh oh ... doesn't bode well, though I find lots of others (more recnet ones) quite OK, even when comparing them to other reissue labels with that kind of material, but of course have no 78s to compare with. Yes, I'd know one or two where the thrill of finding THOSE would be as intense as when I first learned of the existence of these records in 1975 or 76 or so ... Just like with others that took me some 20 years of searching to find.

I did understand that and just wanted to point out this your reaction was not an isolated one - I had the same reaction, though with a different photo, and upon checking others of JMcL I found there are quite a few where you can be misled.

There are MANY photographs in circulation that make you think so. OTOH, if a young Earle Warren and, above all, Lena Horne, are found to be African American when looking at their pictures, then there is no reason why Jackie McLean isn't.

Yes I do see what you mean, and I agree. The thrill of discoveries is gone in some respects and sometimes buying what you are looking for has become too easy (funds permitting ... ). But please step back for a minute and take a look at the OVERALL situation of what you can reasonably find AT ALL from a NON-U.S. perspective: As for originals, apart from the question of "where do you start and where do you finish" when you have tastes that are not too narrow, a) no matter how much you search, a lot of stuff just is inacessible to anybody outside the country where the records were first issued (and often probably outside the state/county where they were pressed and sold off at gigs), and b) I simply am not crazy enough to go on 45rpm hunting sprees through the U.S., shelling out 500 or 1500 $ for some obscure original 45 as many country/rockabilly fanatics from Europe have done, nor c) do I (nor hardly anybody else) have the funds to keep up with those insane Asians who have pillaged European sources for "Eurojazz" for years and decades and have driven the price of those records that remain to totally sick levels. Beyond that, I certainly do search for vinyl, including originals, and I have paid quite a sum through the years, but prices being what they are I'd just as much settle for a decent reissue (particularly one of these facsimile reissues reproducing the original cover artwork etc. and NOT one of those garish contrivedly modernized 70s covers). And even though I still do prefer vinyl and have been known to sell off a CD as soon as I was able to find the same material (at last) on some LP there are many cases where you just cannot find anything except CDs if at all (because originals are just inaccessbiel for the above reasons). Realism just has to prevail sometimes, even in "Collectingland". And this is where reissues (including and above all CDs these days) come in. Of course, if heirs of record collection estates dating back to periods when there would be interesting originals from the 40s, 50s or 60s (bought by the only owner new back then) to be found would make an effort to sell these records one by one or in small lots at prices decent for both sides instead of unloading even those collections in one swift go with dealers who'd pay far less (than what private buyers would pay for items of their choice) but will of course charge top money when THEY resell or (in most cases) auction these items to the next round of prospective owners, then overall accessibility would be a bit better too. But ... as shown in other discussions this seems to have become unrealistic too. So unless you are REALLY rich you are off to the reissue market again ...

Just to get this right: Where would you say the "recent" reissues start? For a while I have participated in their "subscription" program (getting their new 3 CD releases each month) until about 1 1/2 or 2 years ago when I abandoned this because there was not enough overall to REALLY hold my lasting interest (I don't like "country weepers" - different strokes ... ). Before that date when I quit I found some of these releases indeed a bit "clean" but attributed this to the source material (50s recordings, some of them on major labels where good original copies might be easy to clean up). But my main quibble with some (somewhat older and basically very interesting) reissues unfortunately was that while they had to rely on whatever source material they were provided with from collectors, the sources in these cases did not even sound like sub-par digital copies to me but more like 2nd or 3rd-generation tape copies with a noticeable amount of loudness and brightness variation that seemed to oscillate in regular intervals (as a function of the speed of the rotating tape?), like it can happen with older or worn tapes. These were very isolated instances but still a real pity ...

So I suppose people don't get too enthusiastic about his dates for Jubilee (particularly "Fat Jazz") either? I heard it first before finding out about its place in McLean's opus but found it very nice to listen to. Surprisingly, "Fat Jazz" wasn't rated too badly in contemporary reviews either. OTOH, I understand Jackie McLean tendend to distance himself from his Prestige dates (not enough/fair payment, in particular), and it sems to be "common wisdom" that the Prestige hard bop sessions from that period (not just McLean's) were regarded as thrown-together blowing sessions whereas the Blue Notes sessions allowed the musicians much more preparation time, better worked-out dates, etc. Could this - which most will have heard about - have had an unintended influence on the way these sessions are generally perceived today? Whereas contemporary reviews of the latest LPs from labels such as BN, Prestige and others would not so rarely end in some lukewarm "oh, not another blowing session that stretches out too much while the artist hasn't enough of substance to say to fill an entire LP", etc. Regardless of what label this was on. BN might be hit just as much as Prestige or others. And given that recent BN history book (see that other thread), the dividing lines might be revised again. From "thrown-together Prestige blowing sessions with not enough pay vs well worked-out BN sessions with better pay" to "thrown-together Prestige blowing sessions with not enough pay vs BN sessions where the artists were paid in advance to finance their habit and hold them in "bondage" for more sessions of the same to work off their debts"? Might cause some interesting debate. Not that I would claim that there is invariably too much a tendency to listen to often-discussed recordings with that "common knowledge" in the back of one's minds but can and do we all go totally unaffected by all that has been said so often and approach the recordings from a really "tabula rasa" point of departure?

Agreed....... but let's face it none of his recordings from this period are the hi-est of fi..... Wouldn't that tie in nicely what contemporaries of JLH (professional blues/R&B musicians from Detroit) had to say about him at the time in those early post-war years? " He couldn't play shit!" Not hold a meter, not carry a tune, etc. etc. See the "Before Motown" book. Later this would no doubt be called "idiosyncratic" and of course once the blues boom was in full swing this would have been pure heresy to say!

I am not so sure everything has been reissued. Looking randomly through discographies of early post-war R&B yields a LOT that has NOT been reissued ever. Same when browsing through the Cary Ginell's (pre-war) Western Swing & Hot String Band discography. BTW, @Paul Secor, sorry but your statements really are far too black-and-whitish. Your statements give short shrift to a LOT of labels beyond BF and Ace that, if you look closer, do cover new ground, though they do take advantage of the P.D. rule. Fresh Sound (yes, THEM!) don't just rehash, they also have reissued stuff from minor labels or oddball artists in modern jazz that no majors (including major reissuers) would EVER care about (or can you name me a recent major reissuer (who'd pay artist royalties to boot) from whom they have snitched away that Vinnie Riccitelli LP reissue, for example? ). And their R&B subsidiary BLUE MOON has done so with R&B artists from the 78rpm era too. Some of them do make use of previous reissues but CDs on specific artists do resurrect items that have not been around before (at best been some of them have been OOP for decades after having been very, very briefly available on some ultra-obscure Japanese label which to the majority of collectors amounts to "having never been reissued"). So they do put in a lot of work of their own in presenting the music in some coherent fashion for the FIRST time ever. Same in the field of Public Domain-era Country music on the B.A.C.M. label from the UK. Their CDs actually are more like CD-Rs and the source material sometimes is not quite up to snuff soundwise but with the idealistic 2-man almost no-profit operation that is behind it, all I can say is Hats Off to people like them. Never mind if they step on some major's toes because they do milk the P.D. catalog in Europe. Too bad if the majors never bothered to keep all that stuff in print or run their own reissue series in the first place (and claims that they don't because the P.D. labels are there to grab what they do are totally beside the point because they never did any such reissues on these artists even at times when there were no P.D. labels yet). Also, even if all of Allen's tracks intended for including in that 12-CD (?) project had been reissued before (which I strongly doubt), compiling them in a manner that opens up totally new perspectives and insights and adding some insightful liner notes/booklets DOES add something new and important to the overall product IMO. As for OJL reissues having become redundant, are you sure?? What other reissues have superseded their not-so-old Ocie Stockard or Leon Chappell CDs, for example? Finally, as for that scene of niche reissuers being highly cliquish, I'd believe that without hesitation ... Happens in other circles of niche collectabilia (fit for repressing/reprinting) too where nobody will others (who try to do something, if only to breathe some fresh air in) even give the time of day. They'd rather sit and cluck on what they've got, even if in the end they never do anything with it ...

Yes, but this effort has already been taken. Check it out. http://www.angelfire.com/mn/coasters/HookerSessionDiscography.pdf Sure, but that's not what I meant. Even checking out specific records/reissues and finding a pattern of how they were compiled (as in the case of the two UA LPs mentioned initially) is not the easiest of tasks due to the nature of this man's recording and issuing history. Daunting enought if you just want to check something out at a glance. The discography done by SOUL BAG for their 2001 "special" on JLH, btw, may not be as up to date as the one you linked (thanks!) but ain't half bad either.

I'd agree if it wasn't so that most the dealers (that could be approached) are just so greedy. And if it wasn't so that I have quite a huge circle of friends/acquaintances/contacts who share my interests (none share all of my interests but I'd know some trustworthy ones for each of these areas) and, provided I don't outlive them all (unlikely) would be more than willing to acquire this or that of my items at a price that is more than what a dealer would pay but significantly less than what a dealer would charge them (classical win-win situation without the middleman) and/or could provide contacts to others who'd be interested. I am fairly sure I could even get some to act as executors/tristees for specific parts of my "estate" (hey, am I getting ahead of things?? ) that coincide with their specific areas of knowledge (and what remains after those targeted sales could still be unloaded wholesale ). Should it really be so that I am one of only very few who are in such a situation? Not all collectors do their collecting in ivory towers, do they? Laurie certainly did an excellent thing with that public sale she held. Exemplary!

An excellent way of making sure things go directly to the next generation of owners/collectors. And a variation of what I have been wondering about when it comes to how to make sure that at least part of the items go directly where they will be enjoyed. $5 on average certainly isn't bad, BTW. All in all, you did the right thing all the way through IMHO.