SGUD missile

Having had my own run-ins with Damen over on JC ( as Chris is well aware ), I gave up jousting with him about Winnie about a year and a half ago. I spelled out all the reasons in detail why he was at best a mediocre composer..and a truly awful faux Ellington arranger and excreable full orchestra writer to boot ...I learned my lesson and disengaged because the confrontation was what he actually wanted. I never addressed his playing ( which I feel is competant if derivative ) so, having spotted this thread , I just surfed thru it to read others experiences .. until I got to: " LEE'S DEAD ..AND FREDDY AIN'T PLAYIN' NO MORE" WHAAAAAAT????? If WM in fact uttered this as is purportedly true ..this is appalling. My only response to such a moputhful of s**** is: yeh ..but Roy Hargrove is, and so are Tom Harrell, Tim Ries, Terence Blanchard, Wallace Roney,Ingrid Jensen, Jay Thomas, Dennis Dotson, Steve Huffstedder, Carl Saunders, and any one of at LEAST 100 other guys I could name if I wanted to waste the time doing so ( insert your own favorites here ) ... ..and they ALL play better than you Winnie ...

Once again ..Chuck and I disagree on something ( besides Sonny Greer ) Manny was one of the best big band jazz writers around.. he was right up there with Billy Byers and the other NYC biggies in the 50s and 60s .. If you can find it, "Soul of the City" is also a great album ..produced by Phil Ramone and featuring a cast of the NYC 60s A team ..with some great solo work by guys like Phil Woods ( "Museum Piece" is a gorgeous ballad )

Actually, I didn't "sit in " ..During my summer break in college in '57 ( I think ), I actually worked with the Band for about two and a half months ( I think I was somewhere near Winston Welch ) Claude was still usng all that great Mulligan, Evans and Carisi stuff ..and the late ,great Gene Quill became my "road rabbi "

I think its a shame that there are so few opportunities to hear large groups close up these days. On such occasion ( for you in the Pacific NW ) is this coming Saturday 2/5 @ Tulas in Seattle, where the Northwest Prevailing Winds will be getting together tot run down some new charts for a ( hopefully ) upcoming CD later this year .. end of shameless selff floggery!!

During the original ban, there were V discs recorded for use on the AFRS by many bands, but I don't know of any "scab" recording being done ..Petrillo had a pretty firm grip on stuff at that time.

Some of it had to do with the available technology of the era ( mono and two track tape was just beginning to be in use ) ..some of it had to do with the thickness and overall volume levels of the Kenton Band and the preferred arranging styles that offered little transparency or space. In addition, Stan seemed to favor the "over-echo" approach and again , since the chamber used ,although natural rooms, diidn't have the sophisticated means to "tweak" the echo returns to avoid all the midrange buildup that all that brass produced. By Contrast, the Basie and Herman bands styles possessed a lot more "space", dynamics, and open-ness in the writing which in turn made for cleaner recordings ..even using comparable gear. Thats my musician non-technical take on the subject. BTW: By the time the Contemporary Concepts band came out in the late 50s, both the recording gear and the product significantly sounded better to me ( in retrospect ) ( I wish a real pro like Jim Anderson would weigh in on this subject ..)

let me know when Winne --um --"writes" the arrangement .. so I can have a vomit bucket ready .. not a fan of Winnies pencilizations under any circumstances!!!

Nice sentiment, but about 20 years too late, unfortunately. Face it - we're analog dinosaurs in a digital era. We and what we offer are no longer interesting, much less relevant, to the lifestyles and mindsets of the vast majority of the world of today and the forseeable future. The days of people being entertained by real people doing things that they might admire and/or aspire to are over. Machines and ready-made servings of the past do that now, when it's even wanted. More often than not, though, what's wanted is something, anything, that they can either laugh at and feel superior to or at some level identify with as something they themselves could do w/o too much effort. The trend has been in place for quite a while, but I fear that the point of no return has long been passed. Extintion being the evolutionary process that it is, this ain't gonna happen all at once, nor all over, but the trend is obvious. We're dead, finished, obsolete, a relic of a culture and a mindset of a day gone by. Stay in the game, by all means, it's who we are and what we do, and Goddammit, we're GOOD at it, but realize how we fit into the overall picture. Hate to be such a drag, but that's the way I see it. Unfortunately, I gotta agree with Jim on this viewpoint ( and the later post about "Big Bands coming Back" ..hahaha ) All I can say is, I'm glad I'm *retired *and jazz has now become a great hobby ..I finally get to enjoy all those years cranking shit out for insensitive suits to sell widgets and such ..I really feel sorry for all artists trying to make an actual living these days, because in essence, all of Jims' points are dead on. Live music of most styles have become an anachronism ( the possible holdout being C&W which still seems to be basically a "live" meduim ) I consider my big band "retirement project" my "boat " ( y'now ..the hole in the water you pour money into ..except in my case, its the roomful of noisemakers that you throw money at to get blown away ) I do despair for the younger guys like Jim who are still attempting to carry the torch in a very strong headwind .. btw: Jim ..Durick is a M*************er!!!

If I recall my AFM history, the 58 incident was rooted in the attempts by the La movie scoring musicians to secede from the union to gain more specific benefits for the movie and recording musicians. The attempt was called the Musicians Guild and (Ithink ) one of the ringleaders was then studio bone player Si Zentner ( among many others ) One of the issues was the establishment of a pension fund which did not exist at the time. I do know that Chicago trumpet player ( and board member of the AFM Chicago local ) Don Jacoby was sent out by Petrillo to arbitrate the issues involved and over a period of some six months, the issues were settled , which began the process of creation of the Musicians EPW fund contributed to by both musicians and employers who choose to participate in this plan ( mainly those players/arrangers in the symphonic, recording , and theatrical fields these days ) supplying you with an additional income in retirement based on your lifetime covered earnings/contributions ..As a matter of fact, I am a beneficiary of the EPW fund myself. Petrillo was an odd character: he did a lot of damage to musicians in some ways, and yet helped create some features like those described above that were outstanding ..

I just caught up to this forum since it moved from the Blue Note board. I'm glad to see Jim is still participating. Jim I think what you say is so true. The isolation is a mere technical convenience without a musical purpose, and in most cases, it sucks the life out of the music. Our cats spend night after night standing next to each other on the bandstand making great music. Why would I want to change that when I take them into a studio? Putting musicians into isolation booths reminds me of 1950s behavioral psych experiments. People play as though they knew they could do it again. The real drama comes partly from knowing the musician is vulnerable and risking it all. Our current "big vocal record" was recorded by Baker for me at Avatar A. Singer plus octet. A dozen ribbon mikes and the art of the null plane. All full band takes, mixed live to stereo by Baker. Mixing on the Neve, he looked like he was conducting an orchestra himself, and that's how I'll remember him. Luke All the above is the downside of the improvements in recording techonology over the years since multi track regarding began in the 60s. The isolation , overdubbing, and all the other innovations have created a very lackadaisical attituted among studio musicians of the later generations. Since they KNOW they can fix the flubs, the "hands" come up every few bars for a fix. It's not that they CAN'T play it right through ..they know they dont have to anymore, hence the concentration factor is gone. When I recorded my big band CD in 2004 I did it basically live, and I made it a point to make sure to let all involved know we were gonna go for complete takes ( or at the most and intercut pickup like the old "live to 2 track " days. The band really got into it, and most everything was done in two or three takes ( in some cases ,a single take and a pickup ). The overall preformance was excellent, and the energy feel generated by the process was very noticable. ( note: we did use multi-track ProTools, but there was VERY little cosmetic surgery necessary prior to mixing )

considering that many of the really good young black players are currently holding down one of the only jazz gigs available in NYC at Lincoln Center.. or are alumnae thereof .. and other than the Basie and Ellington ghost bands, where were they to find work during that period? It seems to me that many of the black players of that period came out of the Brooklyn scene, M-Base and all that ..not the few remaining ghost bands out there..guys like Bobby Watson, Vincent Herring, James Spaulding, Victor Lewis, et al. ..and my current favorite straight ahead rhythm team: Christian McBride and Greg Hutchison

South Arlington, just north of Mansfield. Remember how Cooper used to be a two-lane going down to dinky little Mansfield? Now there's this little section of area right between Arlington and Mansfield where people actually live in Arlington proper, but they're in the Mansfield school district. Seems our city "leaders," back around 20 years or so ago, thought that Mansfield would always be just a little hick town and practically gave 'em all this land. Now Mansfield's growth is rapidly outpacing that of Arlington's, and they are reaping the lucrative benefits of the school taxes that Arlington could be getting right now if our "leaders"--then AND now--weren't so damn myopic!!! Sorry to go off on a tear there. After I took that picture, I just shook my head in realizing how different the background of each picture was about 15 years ago. Nothin' but trees. Was nice while it lasted. Yep ..now I know whereof you speak! And the overcrowding and sprawl ( along with the deadly ass f*****ing HEAT ) were a couple of the reasons for my presence in the Pacific NW. I recall when the Turnpike opened ..and it was great not to have to fight 183 anymore to get to FW. all my old jazz buddies there say the whole scene has gone down the toilet workwise..

Butch is all that ..but he aint no "youngster any more!

Where is that? somewhere near Grapevine? Euless? ( I see a DFW airport sign ) former Dallasite here ..

You know ALL the bandleaders had moments like that- Dorsey, Miller, Shaw, Woody (I know that from personal experience) etc. They're for the most part just letting off steam and asserting their leadership. I hear Buddy would often be laughing with the guys shortly after a blow-up. I think many of Buddy's musicians (if they weathered the first few tirades) came to realize it was not as bad as it first seemed. I'm sure the first time anyone encountered it was a shock, though. I have a mp3 of the "Buddy Bus Rant" that a friend of mine carefully spliced together with the Basie Sonny Payne showcase "Cute" ( with Buddy* replacing* Payne ) It's a fucking riot! BTW: you omitted a real winner in the ranting bandleader sweepstakes: Si Zentner ..

Sspeaking of seminal horn bands: Dreams :..Breckers +Sanborn + Barry Rogers + Don Grolnik etc .. and then there was Ten Wheel Drive ..and Chase ..

I couldn't help but notice that after my mentioning the "boxes" and inquiring about their meaning ..I recently acquired another"box" neath my picture .. Thus, providing further proof of the "squeaky wheel " axiom ..regarless of the # of my aggregate posts herein ..

Hey YO ..back off!! now yous gone to meddlin' ..messin wit my MAN , Maceo!!! Maceo ..Fred Wesley ..respeck, mon .. keep it real ..

Thank you all for your prompt enlightenment re da box kweschun .. I guess I'll just continue bopping in and dropping the occasional verbal bomb and let those in the higher aeries deign when I shall be granted additional boxes .. I'd like to note however ,that I in no way suffer from "box envy"

?????

Actually, Nashville bassist/ jazz singer Jim Ferguson wrote a tune called " Not just another pretty Bass" that was quite clever in a Dave Frishbergish way .. ( also heard on KPLU )

Can U name sum CDs where the drummers go crazy? I'm nu to jazzy music canu name sum neat stuff to play to get inna chicks pants? what jazz solos should I memorize 2 play at jazm sessions 2 impress people ( and2 get inna chicks pants )? One I've listened 2 Kinda Blue and A Love supreme what other jazz is worth bothering with ? IS the badplus cool or what? BTW: I dont think Bb Ma 7 needs to worry about being too old here ..I'm 67, and I not only remember Al Haig ,I played a session with him back in NYC in the late 50s .. ..and I also am old enough to remember when the Fed chairman was a tenor player on the Henry Jerome hotel band

**GREAT::: Show! listened to most of it online while fixing dinner .. ( sure do miss Gene Quill ) Be sure and keep us posted when you do the Sauter/Finegan show .. any chance of doing a Boyd Raeburn/ Spencer-Hagen /retrospective? anything I can do to help your show, drop me a PM! Phil Kelly

The only "old" horn bands that still sound up to par are EW&F and TofP .. heard 'em both withing the last year ..and they BOTH burn just like the 70s were still here!!!

Boy ..I'm glad I happened to pick right NOW to check out the BBS! That Thornhill Trend album was one of my favorites back in high school! ( plus even better ..I got a chance to play with Thornhill during the summer of 59 during a college break ..and he was still using that book! ) I'll definitely be there at 6:00 PM!