Mark Stryker

Kenny Dorham's Blue Notes as a leader in the '60s are all special and all very different in character from each other -- Whistle Stop, Una Mas, Trompeta Toccata. Sometimes I think people overlook Whistle Stop because it's still more hard bop tan post-bop but KD plays incredibly well on it, not to mention Mobley, Kenny Drew, P.C. and Philly Joe. Una Mas, of course. Herbie-JoeHen-Tony Williams in fantastic form, and KD hanging right with them. TT has yet another feel with its rhythm section of Tommy Flanagan, Richard Davis, Albert Heath, plus Joe and KD in what I think is the lasst of their recorded collaborations, or am I forgetting something?

Going back to Milestone's first post, while it's true that Freddie's sideman appearances are extraordinary -- among them Empyrean Isles, Maiden Voyage, Contours, Components, Speak No Evil -- I would not go so far as to say these are all more enduring than his own records. You mentioned Breaking Point, but Ready for Freddie is one of the great trumpet records and Hub-Tones is pretty special too. Having said all that, if I'm taking one record to represent Freddie on my desert island it would be Herbie's Empyrean Isles.

Yes, much to counter that conventional view. First, the decline started as early 1960-61, and I talked to several people who said Byrd told them it was a result of overwork, "blowing out his chops," especially when he was going to school all day and then playing all night in clubs without properly warming up. The irony is that this happened directly after his chops were at their iron-man peak, a result of studying with a couple of trumpet gurus at the Manhattan School -- William Vacchiano and the elder Joe Alessi (Ralph and Joe's grandfather, not their father, who was also a great classical trumpeter and teacher and was also named Joe -- too many Joes in that damn family!) It is interesting that Byrd barely records at all in 1962 which was a peak year for him going to school -- he completes the non-music courses for his bachelor's degree in '62 and his master's in music ed in '63, and in the summer of '63 he goes to Europe to study with Nadia Boulanger and starts writing for European studio ensembles, etc. But his chop problems predate this. Later in the '60s is when he gets more involved in formal teaching, taking the job at Howard in 1968, and certainly by the early '70s he's got his fingers in so many things that he's not practicing enough to repair his technique or really keep up what he still had. There's another wildcard that I'm still trying to nail down: At some point he dealt with Bell's Palsy, which probably came on the late 70s or early 80s. He makes no records for five years starting in 1982, until the Landmark CDs 1987-91 and by then there's very little left. As I said, I'm still trying to get more details on this particular issue. To be clear, some of the responses listeing various trumpet players were in response to Chuck's secondary question about what post-bop figures of the era didn't appear on Blue Note. Perhaps we need to refocus on your original query...

Well, the decline is slow at first and there are definitely moments -- and "Cristo Redentor" is one of them -- where he's still very focused. I agree with you about this solo -- very soulful. It's interesting in that he really doesn't improvise. The power comes from sticking very close to the melody within the context of the choir and Herbie's bluesy obbligato. One other thing I think is interesting: Byrd's style changed in these years as he was more influenced by Miles, and, while it's only speculation, I think it's possible that his slowly faltering chops helped push him into a less virtuoso style.

Interesting question. Off the top: Booker Little (died in 61) Marcus Belgrave (NY 59-61, then back with Ray Charles, settled in Detroit in '63) Thad Jones (GREAT records in the '50s but nothing as leader in in the '60s, though cameos here and there and some midsize ensemble writing) Don Ellis Nat Adderley A young Randy Brecker Ted Curson Art Farmer Dizzy -- is he on any Blue Note record? Joe Newman A young Jimmy Owens Richard Williams Lonnie Hillyer Alan Shorter Charles Tolliver (nothing as a leader) Tommy Turrentine

As it happens I just did a deep dive into all of Donald Byrd's discography for a long piece in my book. I don't want to go into too much detail at this point but I can offer a few quick observations. He signed with Blue Note at the end of 1958 and the early years of his tenure overlap with his peak as a bandleader and as a trumpeter, though starting sometime in 1960 you start to hear chinks in what had been a remarkable sound and technique, and his chops decline from this point forward. The sound is thinner by 63 and really thin by 65-68. Best overall album: "Royal Flush" (1961) with the quintet with Pepper Adams, Herbie Hancock in only his 2nd record date and the first appearance on BN of Butch Warren Billy HIggins together. Byrd's best representation as a composer and Hancock pushes the music out of the 50s and into the 60. Some folks like the follow up "Free Form" from a few months later in '61 which has the same band, with Wayne Shorter in for Adams -- but I like the balance on "Royal Flush." Best overall pre-Hancock record: "Byrd in Hand" (1959) sextet with Pepper, Charlie Rouse, Walter Davis, Sam Jones, Art Taylor. Quintessential hard bop and Byrd's sound and fluency are incredible. The other Byrd LPs from this period ("Off to the Races," "Fuego," "Byrd in Flight," the two volumes of "At the Half Note Cafe," "The Cat Walk," "Chant") all have different reasons to recommend them. I would just note a couple of things aimed at this board: Hank Mobley plays his ass off on "Byrd in Flight" (which comes from the same period as "Soul Station/Roll Cal/Workout") And if you want to hear some really beautiful trumpet playing listen to "When Your Love is Gone" on "Off to the Races." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWgBqOKtUi8

No, never seen/heard it. Is the big band or small group? When was it recorded. There was an ugly falling out between Von Ohlen and Allee, yes?

"Baby Einstein on the Beach" http://bam150years.blogspot.com/2013/04/bam-announces-world-premiere-of-baby.html

Step away from the credit card, sir!

Don't think Andrew Hill's "Shades" has been mentioned -- Jordan plays great on that. FWIW, that Farmer record "Blame It On My Youth" is tremendous all the way around -- one of the best records of the 80s in that idiom.

Answering my own question, Max Roach's "It's Time" incorporates a choir and was recorded in Feb. 1962, about 11 months prior to "A New Perspective." Unless anyone can come up with evidence to the contrary, I think this may be the first time a choir in the African American tradition was mixed with a modern jazz group.

Von Ohlin is a very musical drummer -- underrated. One of the best big band drummers who also sounds good in a small-group setting. If he had a different temperament, he'd be much better known -- living in LA or NY, recording, traveling with bigger name folks. But he's really a Midwesterner. For a long time he co-led a once-a-week band in Indianapolis with pianist-composer-arranger Steve Allee that I think ran concurrently with the Blue Wisp band for a bit. A nice guy too -- I wrote a chart in high school once on "Billie's Bounce" and -- in a ballsy move I had no business making -- called him up and told him who I was and asked if his band would read it at one of their rehearsals. He agreed, and somewhere I have a tape of it I made on a crappy little machine. It was my first real big band arrangement and there was some funky stuff in it (as in "wrong"), but a lot of it worked and the guys were generous with praise. Kiger was there; so was the late tenor saxophonist Paul Plummer. Anyway, I was always grateful Von Ohlin took the time ...

http://www.musicincincinnati.com/site/commentary/Remembering_the_Blue_Wisp.html Here's a nice piece about the Blue Wisp club in Cincinnati. Coda: the writer was my editor for a few years in Detroit. Nice woman who really knows the music.

A couple of stories about the sale. Unclear, of course, what this will mean long term for the stuff we all care about ... http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/indies/1554424/concord-music-group-to-be-sold-to-wood-creek-capital-management http://fmqb.com/article.asp?id=2633171

Previous discussion -- Thad, McCoy, others showing up in NYT's puzzle

Thanks all around -- I think we got them all.

Here's another one for today: How many records did Butch Warren and Billy Higgins make together. I count nine on Blue Note: Donald Byrd (2) Sonny Clark Herbie Hancock Jackie McLean (2) Don Wilkerson Dexter Gordon (2) plus an aborted Grant Green date, right? Are there others I'm overlooking either on BN or elsewhere?

Thanks -- 57 does make more sense because Byrd wasn't signed to BN at the time and was recording all over the place in the earlier period.

Can anyone provide a definitive recording date (year) for the "Donald Byrd with Strings" album that was recorded in the '50s but not released until the early '80s on Discovery. I've seen at least one discography list it as 1959 but other usually reliable references that have it as 1957. I don't own it but have heard it before -- beautiful album -- but not recently, when I've been listening to so much Byrd I think I could might be able to tell which year by the sound of his trumpet. Thanks in advance.

Thanks ...

"Gospel" is a slippery category. In relation to "A New Perspective" the issue is not whether the singers were either a standing church choir or an adhoc ensemble from the Manhattan School but whether the idiom in which they were singing qualifies as "gospel." Frankly, I'm not sure. We have an unbelievably great African American choir in Detroit -- the Brazeal Dennard Chorale -- that specializes in spirituals but also performs standard classical literature and they go nuts when they are called a gospel choir, because they associate the term with a more sanctified style, more vernacular, accompanied by electric organ/rhythm section etc. There is a formal, refined sound to the choir on the record -- the spirituals are there but its not sanctified as I would understand it. Can anybody offer of precise definition of "gospel" or what's the best way to refer to the choral part of "A New Perspective." Calling Allen Lowe, perhaps?

Don't see it listed here, but if you have and would be willing to part with Thad & Mel set, I'd consider strongly at a fair price ...

Thanks, Larry. Interesting -- I don't know this record at all! From the same year as "A New Perspective." My sense is that perhaps no one had literally married a gospel choir with modern jazz until Byrd did it, but that related ideas and concepts were undoubtedly in the air.

Re: Byrd's "A New Perspective" What are the precursors to the marriage of modern jazz and gospel choir on this record? Anybody do something like this previously?

Don't have the book yet but am curious why Byrd left the Jazz Lab. Can someone provide a brief summary? Thanks