Jump to content

BFT #20 - discussion


mmilovan

Recommended Posts

Thanks for providing us with this very nice compilation of wonderful mostly-swing music (as expected ;) ), Milan!

Good for the average organissimo member to discover there´s jazz before bop! :g

And good for FunnyRatters to discover there´s jazz before Coltrane! :P

Being at work, I don´t have access to my collection or my database, so maybe you´ve included some music you sent me before (did you?) or even music that I sent you before (did you?). With both options, mikeweil´s BFT rule number one would apply and it´d make me feel completely ashamed! ;)

Just a few guesses/comments for now:

1.- This is “In the mood”, but this is not Glen Miller´s Orchestra, for sure! This version is a real jazz version. No idea who´s playing, though.

4.- Jimmie Lunceford?

5.- Charlie Parker playing “Star eyes”. The phrasing, the tone, the total command of the horn, everything says it´s HIM. I don´t have too many Bird live dates, so I can´t guess which recording this low-fidelity track was taken from. Benedetti? Did you finally pick it?

6.- Hey, this is about jazz masters. Milan´s favorite musician playing “Don´t be that way”.

8.- Benny Goodman / Lionel Hampton / Charlie Christian date. Additional research needed to identify tune and recording.

9.- Old Testament Basie´s worst sounding broadcast ever! ;)

10.- What a change of pace regarding sound quality!

11.- How could you avoid including Lady Day! Beautiful rendition of “Any old time” with some very long-lived clarinetist´s orchestra. Couldn´t find a link, but it´s on volume 4 of the complete 1933-44 master takes in some Spanish label, and in volume 6 of the complete collection on some French label.

12.- Woody Herman´s Four Brothers.

13.- I know the song, but can´t bring a name. Hell, I´ll check this one!

15.- This one was easy. Track 6 from this one:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=music

16.- Tune is “Outskirts of town” (Waller/Razaf). Who´s singing?

20.- Gillespie´s tune “Oop Bop Sh'Bam”. But not by his orchestra.

Googlin´ research brings Billy Eckstine.

21.- Maxine Sullivan. I DO NEED to get a great deal of recordings by this lady!

22.- “Gone with the wind” in Session 22 from this discography:

http://csis.pace.edu/~varden/navarro/discog.html

23.- “Lady´s in love with you”. Her voice sounds familiar.

24.- More BASIE to end this disc.

Great music, Milan!

I´ll try to check some tracks when I get home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Thanks for providing us with this very nice compilation of wonderful mostly-swing music (as expected  ;) ), Milan!

Hi people,

Many thanks for answers, that almost were pefect... B-) Well, almost... we have to struggle around 2 or 3 tracks. :)

And many thanks for Agustin, who almost guess theme of our BFT 20. Almost.

Edited by mmilovan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spent - and lost - too much time looking for the correct answer to track 6 (our man Prez).

I was looking in the wrong direction since the answer was practically right in front of me.

That one was track 6 of disc 1 from this box (it also shows up on various compilations):

http://www.vanguardrecords.com/s2s/

And another thanks to Milan for making me return to that wonderful set.

Edited by brownie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spent - and lost - too much time looking for the correct answer to track 6 (our man Prez).

I was looking in the wrong direction since the answer was practically right in front of me.

That one was track 6 of disc 1 from this box (it also shows up on various compilations):

http://www.vanguardrecords.com/s2s/

And another thanks to Milan for making me return to that wonderful set.

That set has been in my wish-list for too long!

When I was writing my comments on this BFT, I looked for a Prez recording of "Don´t be that way" and I found the Spirituals to Swing recording of Basie´s Kansas City Five, but I thought all were live recordings in that set. Now I´ve found there were a few studio sessions.

And I was almost sure that it was Basie on piano, but I was too fearful of being battered if I was wrong... :w

Prez ALSO lives! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spent - and lost - too much time looking for the correct answer to track 6 (our man Prez).

I was looking in the wrong direction since the answer was practically right in front of me.

That one was track 6 of disc 1 from this box (it also shows up on various compilations):

http://www.vanguardrecords.com/s2s/

And another thanks to Milan for making me return to that wonderful set.

Thanks from me too - here's my rule # 1 item :g

Glad I don't have to buy this very recommendable set! Considered a Prez track from this for my recent BFT ....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Milan,

I'm listening to your BFT again and I have to say, this is as baffled as I have been by any BFT so far! I'm able to pick out a few musicians here and there but, other than that, I am pretty clueless.

I'm really enjoying listening to this disc and will try to get my comments written in the next day or so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No comments from our American members? Postal Service is really slow in the Empire!  B-)

not yet received!!! :o

better send out a search party!! <_<

Ditto, the southeast Florida contingent also includes Dan Gould and myself. We have yet to receive the coveted BFT 20.

Checking in from Texas, and no sign of a BFT yet! Ah well, 'tis the holidaze after all. -_- ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Track 12. (again) Starting off with where I left off, taking one step back. This track rings better with me now. Still no clue on the identity of the players and the band, but I'm tipping for the original brothers. Sounds like this may be a broadcast.

Track 13. I'm playing "name the tune" here again, drats. This swings very nicely. The tenor rips through it all telling me I should know his name. The screams in the background do mirror some of my own enthousiasm. I should invest more time with this type of stuff. The chaotic ensemble is very funny I think.

Track 14. boogie woogie somehow always sounds a bit silly to me. The silliness is nicely hidden on this one though. Still wouldn't go out of my way to acquire this.

Track 15. None of them believed me when I told them this'd be Johnny. This must be from that Bethlehem album I do not have. Great singer, though he strikes me as having assorted amphibians in his throat here somehow. Remains great nevertheless.

Track 16. fantastic stuff. No clue who is singing here, but I like this kind of ancient "pop" a lot. The lyrics are dripping from all the instruments, not just from the singer.

Track 17. choo choo! all aside, here comes the steamer. heheheh, circus animals aboard too. The tenor sounds familiar. fun track.

Track 18. more power big band. clue me in.

Track 19. I have a very strong sense I have heard this before. nothing clicking anywhere in my brain of course. are those club noises in the background, is this a live recording? getting at the end, yes, obviously it is...

Track 20. Oop bop sh'bam. must be Eckstine's band, right? lots of power here, and big fun too.

Track 21. now this is very pretty, don't know the singer. I think I should change that. thanks for this.

Track 22. and another one! she slishesh like shashy, but it's shomeone elshe. I like this a lot.

Track 23. pfff, even more... heard her before, cannot identify though. nice again.

Track 24. sounds like Basie, beats me as to what, who, and where though. Nice swinger to end the disk.

It strikes me that although I enjoy this music a lot, I have invested little time and money in it. Although this BFT does push me there, and push me hard, I am afraid I still will not have the time. Will I forever remain on the sidelines where this type of swing to bop stuff is concerned?

anyhow, thanks a bunch! :tup

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My disc arrived from John Bon Thursday, and I listened to it once Thursday night and twice yesterday while on the road (GREAT road music, btw!). Thanks to John for getting me the copy, and many thanks to Milan for compiling such as interesting, challenging, and above all, enjoyable BFT.

Usual disclaimers apply, haven't read others' comments, etc.

TRACK 1 - WHOA! Old wine, different bottle! The Miller version is what everybody knows, but this tune was around for a while before his crew gt hold of it, put a more elaborate arrangement on it, and created an iconic version of it that remains an irritant to many to this day (and a source of joy to many as well). This version has a Basie feel to it in spots in terms of its riffy exuberance, but I don't know Basie ever having recorded this. No matter, a lively rendition, and the tenor player, if not Buddy Tate, is definitely coming from the same place. Great to hear this, so refreshing from the old warhorse!

TRACK 2 - The only two jazz altoists that I'm aware of from this era who could pull something like this off are Jimmy Dorsey & Rudy Wiedoeft, but I couldn't tell you if this was either. No matter, this stikes me as "Hot Jazz" of the best kind. The arrangement is a gas, especially that interlude. This si the kind of thing that you can't reproduce today - the subleties of the timing and phrasing are of a time that has long passed. But the original still brings great pleasure. Trombonis speaks a limited vocabulary with total confidence and command (another reason why you can't reproduce this today - how can you play like this knowing of everything that has come since? That's a "proplem" those guys didn't have! ), and that altoist is a freak, in the best way. Loved it!

TRACK 3 - Oh, I should know this one! But I can't call it... Tune's one of those "Blue Lou" things where the A-section is spent on two chords waiting until the last minute to resolve to the tonic, a tactic that is always good for building a groove on. Everybody keeps it mellow, and the drummer keeps the pocket just right. The pianist gets the most out of the changes, I think, GREAT playing by him/her. Not necessarily a "great" cut, but a darn nice one, and "smooth jazz" of the best kind!

TRACK 4 - "Sleepy Time Gal", of course. What a GREAT rhythm section! Swinging their ASSOFF!!! "Buoyant" is the word that repeatedly comes to mind. Miles' use of two-beat swing is coming right out of this kind of thing. Clarinet trio on the opening melody suggests Lunceford, as does the feel of the entire piece. That sax soli is pretty eye/ear-opening! Did benny Carter write this arrangement? The modualtory section just before the out chorus is pretty dan "modern", as is the out chorus itself. Beautiful stuff!

TRACK 5 - Bird, of course. If the point is to show the connection between Bird's use of double time and the previous number, it works, but know that Bird's music involved a lot of chromaticism. Nevertheless, a most interesting, illuminating, and delightful juxtaposition that shows how things never really change as much as they do evolve.

TRACK 6 - As long as Lester Young's music can be heard in it, I will want to keep living in this world.

TRACK 7 - Not my favorite cut, but GOOD LORD that drummer's got the brush thing happening! Buddy Rich, Shelley Manne, and Ed Thigpen are the first 3 names that come to mind. There's a "driven" quality to it that suggests Buddy, but I could easily be wrong. Oscar PEterson on piano? Don't know!

TRACK 8 - "Hi-Ho Bernstein!" - a "private joke" line I tell myself at "society" events where the customers want to hear some "swing music". Indeed!

Charlie's supposed to have gone to Minton's after the gig and complain long and loud about how square Benny was, and I wonder if some of his lines here aren't a kind of dig at Benny. Those striaght quarter notes are just a little too "cruel", if you know what I mean... But Benny decides to swim rather than sink here, which was not always the case!

And I'll say it again - Lionel Hampton is simply one of the most amazing musicians in the annals of jazz!

TRACK 9 - A Basie airshot, I think, and one that adds to the relatively scant recorded evidence that Jack Washington was a BAAAAADDDDD muthashutyomouth! What I wouldn't give to be able to experience that Band in person! So much unrestrained, inexhauastable, joyous power!

TRACK 10 - Always a treat to hear John Gilmore! And always a treat to hear a great Fletcher Henderson chart!

TRACK 11 - I hear a lot of people say that Billie didn't really have that great of an ear for harmony, but listening to this cut should dispell that notion as so much nonsense. The melody has some "unusual" notes, and she hits them with total ease. So there. If her life had gone in a differetn direction, she could have been on of the greatest pop singers of all time. As it was, she became one of the greatest artists of all time. Here's she's filling both roles. Much love.

Shaw's bands of that era always had one of the more relaxed and elegant feels of the bunch, and this one is no exception (very nice writing, too). However, as nice as Georgie Auld/Tony Pastor (which one is it?) sounds here, imagine what would have happened if Prez had been able to make the date!

TRACK 12 - Too much spirit, I'm afraid. "Four Brothers", possible by some Chubby Jackson side project, but it's just too much... Somebody shoot the drummer, please!

TRACK 13 - Now THIS is more like it! One thing I can't help but notice is how much more fluent Flip is with the chromatic changes that the rest of the soloists (except for Burns); but Bill Harris is playing another type of game entirely, and it's one that gets some people arrested in some places! :g

This whole unit was so ALIVE, so in the moment. You can hear in in Chubby's little hoots and hollers (pre-Mingus, btw), and, what I inevitably end up noticing, Dave Tough's dumming, which is always right in there responding and commenting.

What a great BAND this was!

TRACK 14 - Hot Lips Page? Nah...Pretty distinctive style, but one that I don't know well enough to name. REAL old-scholl tone and phraseology, but with that boogie-woogie beat (can't tell you the pianist, either). The whole thing is like prototypical R&B in a lot of ways, which given the style of the trumpeter shows you that the more things change...

TRACK 15 - Now here's one where repeated listening pais off, I hope. My first impression was that this was some obscure Earl Coleman offshoot, but second time through I heard some enunciations that rung a bell, and third time through confirmed it - this is Joe Williams! I remember a Savoy LP of the late 70s of Joe pre-Basie that I never got around to hearing, but that would be my guess. Wild!

This whole type of singing has its roots in Eckstine (check out that tag!), which in turn springs from Sinatra's breakthrough of treationg a pop song as a dramatic, artistic vehicle rahter tahn "just" a song. It's a style of singing that seems to be an accquired taste for may, especially today, and frankly, it took me a while to accquire it, but I have. This is not a particularly good example of what the style can produce, but as an example of just how big a breakthrough Jow Williams' mature style was in terms of combining urbanity, blues, and the Eckstine-ish sensibility into a total package, it's a fascinating document. Plus, it's a great song!

TRACK 16 - Oh yeah! Louis Jordan! In some people's eyes, the showmanship and such still obscures what a great, genuine talent his was. The singing here is darn near perfect, as is the alto onthe introduction. Listening to the singing, the level of sublty and nuance in every aspect is about as high as it can be.

This is a song that has become a classic, and in this neck of the woods, you can still hear "chitlin' circuit" bands doing it, and a lot of them don't even know who Louis Jordan was. That'sa drag, but it also speaks to how deep and timeless he was. Underestimate him at your own risk!

TRACK 17 - Definitely has that RCA studio sound. Basie? I've just got the American Bluebird issue, BRAND NEW WAGON, and this isn't on it, but damn if this doesn't sount like Jo Jones & Buddy Tate. FIERCE!

TRACK 18 - I have this one on a Stash issue. What a NASTY groove! And who is/wasJohn Sparrow? This guy was playing gutbucket tenorlike nobody;s business in 1942! and then there's Lady Q and John Jackson, and all that other Kansas City goodness. If you can't dance to this, you ain't got no legs. A great cut!

TRACK 19 - You must be headin' north, 'cause you'e puttin' on your Illinois Jacket! (sorry, old joke, couldn't resist...)

Well, yeah, there it is. The tune I recognize s the title to "Jammin' The Blues", and I recognioze Jacquet, but not this particular performance. Crowd sounds too placid for JATP, but maybe not? Altoist shows a bit of the "tightening up" the alto sound that bop introduced, saame w/the trumpeter. But they'r not boppers by any means (not at this stage, anyway) whooever they are.

And then there's the man himself. What a big sound - rough, but not ragged, fully intense, but never raucous to the point of losing control. The high notes are never random squeals, they're properly fingered and executed altissimo notes. "Reed biting" and such are other ways to produce these notes, and Jacuet uses it here to get that REALLY hugh note, but it's like anything else - if you don't know what you're doing, you can't control it. And Jacquet is TOTALLY in control of his instrument. And he's bending the horn to his will, a will that has undeniably erotic implications. That's not all it has, but it definitely has that.

This introduction of a sexual element that was at once raw and totally controlled opened a lot of things up, some of them good, some of them not. But tell you what, stuff like this might sound tamer today than it did then, but by no means does it sound tame.

TRACK 20 - Speaking of Eckstine..

Speaking of indefatigable spirit...

Speaking of boundless power...

Speaking of a new day...

TRACK 21 - Not keen on the alto intro, sounds a little choppy to me, but the singer is SUPERB. Not so much "jazz" as "jazz formed", She sings pretty striaght, but her phrasing is smoooooth, and she sounds like she could play with it some if she wanted too (or would be allowed to). That piano solo is a GAS - just 8 bars, but the architiecture is perfect, and the note choices very shrewd. Also like how the bass goes into a walk behind that solo. The whole thing sounds to me like a jazz group masquerading as a pop band!

TRACK 22 - OH LORD HAVE MERCY!!!! I am SO in love! This woman's pitch is a little off at times, but DAMN, that phrasing sounds like she's a liquid being poured into the song, and she's so liquid that she leaks gracefully into some spots that the son didn't know it had. This is a continuation of the Sinatra/Eckstine approach continued with a feminine perspective. Definitely not Sarah, WAY too vulnerable. Check out 1:18-1:19. DAMN! Check out the "flame" at 1:50. DAMN! Check out the way the vibrato unfolds rather than remains constant. DAMN! This woman is singing with SO MUCH feeling.

Beautiful horn writing too. That intro is downright haunting. And the countermelodies behind the vocal, very understated, but totally perfect. The whole thing hits that zone from the git-go. Perfect, in spite of the singer's pitch. sometimes that don't matter, and this is one of those times, at least for me.

I have no idea who this singer is, but it's defintiely somebody I want to explore further.

TRACK 23 - All right, hip, sassy, very urbane, the kind of thing that people who have no idea about jazz in general can nevertheless hook up with, as can people who are. Hines-ish piano, sining that only sometimes needs the original melody, attitude to spare, and sophisitication that makes itself readily apparent w/o any need to flaunt it. Perfect "cabaret jazz", if that means anything. I'm not real familiar with this genre, but Hazel Scott and Nellie Lutcher are two names that come to mind, whether accurately or not. No matter -VERY nice!

TRACK 24 - Oooh, this is a wierd one. The saxes have a real difference of opinion with the rest of the band about the timing of their phrases with the rest of the band, maybe even amongst themselves. Not enough to sound wrong, but enough that I noticed it and kept noticing it.

Otherwise, I dunno, sounds like one of those L.A. big bands made up of a ixture of vets and younger players. Maybe that Capp-Pierce thing? Definitely some well-seasoned players on hand, though. Sweets on trumpet? The tenor doesn't have much space at allto play in, just 8 bars, but he takes his own sweet time anyway, leaves a WHOLE lot of space. Gotta love that, that's being VERY well-seasoned.

The lead altoist is definitely coming out of Marshall Royal, but Marshall would have never let that timoing discrepancy pass. Unless this is from so late in his life that he was basically just playing for kicks. And the final drum fill seems to fumble ever so slightly. So we might have some vets who are a little off their game in terms of getting it righ in every way. Feel and precision don't necessarily exclude each other, especially in this genre and (what I think is) this generation.

Oh well...

Hey, this was a GREAT complilation, and with 24 songs on one CD, perhaps the most "value packed" BFT I've come across. Since it contains a lot of music in styles that I'm not all that converrsant with, this one will get more "regular" listening than usual. Once I learn who everybody is, I'll be even more into it, as well as into doing some much-needed homework!

Thanks again, Milan. LOVED it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Milan, thanks a lot for your compilation! Lots of old and nice music on it!

However, I decided not to post any track-by-track post. I find it harder and harder to find any meaningful words to write about music, and the disc you compiled mostly contained music of styles of which I hardly scratched the surface as a listener.

I recognized some tunes ("In the Mood", "Star Eyes", "Four Brothers"), as well as a couple of artist (Bird, Dizzy's first big band), and I think Basie. Probably several big names are there (Prez? Goodman?).

Also I got a bad feeling that at least one cut comes from some disc you got from me... and I did not recognize.

Now some things I like and thought about while listening:

#4 has very nice saxophone tutti writing! Creamy.

#5 should be Bird, yes? Was too lazy to check my Bird, but I don't think I have any version of "Star Eyes" of his that's cut after his solo.

#6 that modulating phrase during the tenor passage reminds me of Prez quite some - I'm not sure if it's him, though. Also I'm too lazy to go through all my Prez stuff...

#8 does the announcer say "Artie Bernstein"? Is this a Goodman recording? Tough or Krupa?

#12 is this the original version of "Four Brothers"? My Herman still is very thin, and I don't have any of his Mosaics yet.

#16 very nice alto here! Willie Smith? Guess not, no. Who's the singer? Good stuff!

#20 would be the one tune I could pin down, weren't I too lazy to do so...

Many many thanks for this nice disc, Milan!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I received my disc this past week, but I’ve been too busy to really devote sufficient time to comment thoroughly. Some of this material is outside (predating) my area of knowledge and interest... but I did enjoy much of it!

I did recognize Bird on #5 “star eyes”, Goodman quartet on #8, Billie on # 11 (with Artie Shaw?... that was pretty), Louis Jordan #16 “outskirts of town”; as well as some other tunes- #1 “in the mood”, #6 “don’t be that way” (could be Lester on that), #12 “four brothers” (great version!), #13 (familiar theme that I can’t name at the moment), #15 “they didn’t believe me” (but who? it sounds a lot like Joe Williams' phrasing to me... 2nd listen gives me a stronger impression that it is indeed Joe... kind of weird at times... like it's slowed down a tad...), #20 “ooh bop sh’bam” (don’t hear Dizzy, though), #22 “gone with the wind”, #23 “the lady’s in love with you” (nice distinctive vocalist... but I don’t know her),.

Woody Herman’s band on #10?

I’ll be interested to see the solutions to some of these mysteries. Thank you Milan for assembling this!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, many thanks for all of you people.

I’m reading comments and had just really great time.

You’ve guessed correctly almost everything until now.

But I know that it would be very interesting to Jim to hear exact musicians and to read his own lines to track 7 and 12 one after another. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok ok, it's not Dizzy, but Mr. B - I just got that Spotlite CD, by the way, but had not chance to listen so far.

Also, I have the Hartman and the Prez track <_<

BTW that's the studio version cut for Excelsior reissued on Savoy, not on the Spotlite.

You have the box with the Prez track? - all Prez on that set is marvellous!

Did you compare the Hartman? Jim R has his doubts, and to me this voice does not sound enough like Hartman, but I don't have that suspected album.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, many thanks for all of you people.

I’m reading comments and had just really great time.

You’ve guessed correctly almost everything until now.

But I know that it would be very interesting to Jim to hear exact musicians and to read his own lines to track 7 and 12 one after another. :lol:

Milan, what are the tracks we didn't get so far?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And to add my two cents to discussion about female singers (I like comments about track 22) just listen perfect grace note (or triplet, or very individual phrasing) at track 21, 2:10 (“deep in a-a dream” line). How elastic, never lazy, but at the same time cool and smooth! And so f-r-a-g-i-l-e! Hard things to do at the same time. And with no sign of pretentiousness – so rare in today’s (even jazz) singing.

I know, I’m old fashioned. :(

I was born too old.

Edited by mmilovan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Milan, what are the tracks we didn't get so far?

Think no one guessed main solist on track 3.

Track 10 is enigma, wait untill you hear! :party:

Track 14 - it's a boogie! How strange that trumpet style is not so easily recognizable today.

Also 17 - is a "trick" track - the band sounds like someone's else band (Basie comes to mind, yes..., but it is not Basie).

To be honest, I did not expect from anybody to guess track number 24. It is just for your listening pleasure.

Edited by mmilovan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

TRACK 22 - OH LORD HAVE MERCY!!!! I am SO in love!

Check out 1:18-1:19. DAMN! Check out the "flame" at 1:50. DAMN! Check out the way the vibrato unfolds rather than remains constant. DAMN! This woman is singing with SO MUCH feeling.

Jim,

how about "became" word at the very same track (@ 2:34)...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...