Grachan Moncur "Evolution"

[Claude]

Grachan Moncur III's "Evolution" is one of my favourite Blue Note sessions. That's why I always wanted to find the best sounding version (but I couldn't afford an original LP release). I wasn't satisfied at all with Ron McMasters mastering of this session in the Mosaic Select, although it is still the best sounding session in this set.

Today I got the japanese TOCJ CD, which I won on Ebay for only $11.6. Before the Select was released, this would have been a CD with many bids. It was released in 1996 (the disc mentions 1994 and 1996, so I guess the later date is the release date).

I made a A/B comparision with my two CD players. The first noticeable difference was that there is more tape hiss on the TOCJ disc, while the Select was almost dead quiet. This confirmed my suspicion that McMaster uses NoNoise filtering on his latest remasterings.

The seconds and most important difference is that treble on the Select seems capped. The TOCJ doesn't sound bright, but the Select is muffled and distant in comparision. At the same time, the cymbals sounds slightly distorted, while on the TOCJ they sound smoother and have the right timbre. The difference is a bit like FM vs AM radio.

The dynamics on the TOCJ are also better, it sounds much more lively.

My impression of the Select is that it sounds like being made from a multi-generation tape copy, while the TOCJ is made from the master tape. Of course this can't be, so I wonder what McMaster did to make it sound like this. I don't want to bash him, because he made some Blue Note remasterings which sound very good, better than the TOCJ versions. But missed this one, and it's a pity it happened on a Mosaic set, which is supposed to be the definitive reissue.

So if you see a TOCJ copy of this session, it is worth getting it even if you have the Select. It's my definitive version.

[tjobbe]

Hi Claude,

what about this one here from

CD Pacific that they list as BLNJ9564.2 dated Feb 2004 ?

Cheers, Tjobbe

EDIT: jpc.de also list a japanese one for the same date (no image although ) but charges a premium for this

Edited January 18, 2005 by tjobbe

[Claude]

Hi Tjobbe,

I don't know that release, but I don't like the ECM-ish cover

[Chuck Nessa]

The first noticeable difference was that there is more tape hiss on the TOCJ disc, while the Select was almost dead quiet. This confirmed my suspicion that McMaster uses NoNoise filtering on his latest remasterings.

How does this "confirm" it?

[Claude]

No, maybe my english was too limited there. It made my suspicion stronger.

[couw]

(the disc mentions 1994 and 1996, so I guess the later date is the release date)

This means the disk was released in 1994.

I remember reading what the t+2yrs 1996 date on the back was all about on board krypton once, but I forgot.

BTW & FWIW 1994 will make it a 16bit remaster.

Edited January 18, 2005 by couw

[J.A.W.]

I fully agree with Claude, the Select sounds awful compared to the TOCJ.

[tjobbe]

(the disc mentions 1994 and 1996, so I guess the later date is the release date)

This means the disk was released in 1994.

I remember reading what the t+2yrs 1996 date on the back was all about on board krypton once, but I forgot.

BTW & FWIW 1994 will make it a 16bit remaster.

so can than I assume that the ones TOCJ listed with dates 2002 and 2004 are either 20 or 24bit remasters and done "fresh and new" ?

Cheers, Tjobbe

Edited January 18, 2005 by tjobbe

[couw]

The 2002 one is likely to be a straight reissue of the 1994 16bit disk.

The one from 2004 (TOCJ 9564) is a JRVG, AFAIK

[J.A.W.]

The 2002 one is likely to be a straight reissue of the 1994 16bit disk.

The one from 2004 (TOCJ 9564) is a JRVG, AFAIK

Yup, TOCJ-9XXXs are definitely not TOCJs, if you get my drift.

[Parkertown]

I concur with Claude. (I ususally do...) B-)

That's exactly what I've found. However, Ron McM did seem to help out the bad tape bleed on the One Step Beyond session that plagues my JRVG. Or maybe I'm just turning up the volume wayyyy toooo louddddd!

Ya know, I kinda felt the same way comparing the JRVG of Mr. PC's "Bass On Top" with the version on the Mosaic Select. Less tape hiss on the Select, but I prefer the imaging on the Select over the JRVG. The JRVG seems "narrowed"; the Select is nice 'n' wide...more 3-D!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I sent this to Michael Cuscuna and he forwarded it to Ron McMaster. If I hear anything back, I'll let you know,

If you check out Capitol Mastering's website, you can see that they have two mastering benches, one with NoNoise and one without. I specifically asked Michael to see if maybe Ron used a different console for this title.

Later,

Kevin

[jazzypaul]

Great, now I feel bad. I listen to that Mosaic set constantly. Now I find out that there's a better sounding version to be had. I simply can't afford to be a jazz fan...

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I forwarded Claude's initial post in this thread to Michael Cuscuna to see if he could ask Ron McMaster about this. Obviously, Claude is not the first to note a preference for the TOCJ CDs to the Mosaic Select and I thought it merited sending off.

To preface Ron's response, this is what I said in my E-mail:

"I know that one of the remastering stations out in LA has a NoNoise plug-in. It's listed on many remastered CDs of older material. Does Ron use it on his station? I ask because of a thread that someone started on the www.organissimo.org board."

Following this, I inserted Claude's original post.

After adding Claude's original post, I said:

"So what do you think of his analysis? I tend to doubt Ron used NoNoise but maybe it was turned on by accident? Does Ron list what mastering station he uses on his masters? I see on their website that Ron usually uses Mastering Suite 2 (as shown on their website at: http://www.capitolstudios.com/capitolmastering/ms2.html). Maybe for the Moncur set he used Mastering Suite 1 ( http://www.capitolstudios.com/capitolmastering/ms1.html ), which is where Bob Norberg usually works.

BTW, others have commented on the Grachan Select sound and the general consensus has been that people should keep their TOCJ copies if they have them. I imagine that's why Claude went out of his way to get one. I never thought it sounded that bad but I will admit that I never did an A/B comparison."

So, that's what I sent.

Ron McMaster replied back:

"Claude compared the Mosaic Select release of Grachan Moncur III's "Evolution" to the Japanese TOCJ release of the same track. He states that there is tape hiss on the TOCJ version while my version is "dead quiet", therefore confirming his suspicions that I use NoNoise filtering on my remastering.

This is completely untrue. The version that you hear on the Mosaic Select is from the original RVG master tapes. The track (as well as all the others on this release) are just ever so slightly eq'd so as to sound as they did when they were originally recorded.

They contain no NoNoise processing of any kind. This is the closest to the original as you can get.

I'm sorry that Claude does not like my mastering job on this release as he feels that the "treble on the Select seems capped", however this is the original RVG sound as it was intended.

As you know it was intended to be heard on vinyl, not digital but that is another sonic argument in it's own right. However, when I hear people say that "the Mosaic Select sounds like it was made from a multi-generation tape copy" I must set the record straight.

I keep notes on every project I do and I can tell you that all of my sources on this Mosaic Select were original analog masters from our vault. Now if the Japanese license the music and decide to put their eq'd version of it out, then that's up to them.

I always discuss with the producer what they want and how they want to approach the project. We don't just master songs and put them out without getting final approval from the producer of the record.

We have a few simple rules that we go by when we remaster any original tracks. We always try to stay as close to the original sound as we possibly can and we never use any NoNoise processing unless I have the consent of the producer.

I hope I have helped clear up the "Mosaic Select vs TOCJ" questions for now."

BTW, Michael Cuscuna also E-mailed me. He said, "Tell the guy it's a known fact that the Japanese overdub tape hiss to trick audiophiles". Although I have to say, I read this as a joke. Maybe Chuck Nessa could tell us if this was a joke or not?

Later,

Kevin

[Late]

I have a cd just of tape hiss. I put it on when my audiophile friends come over. It seems to relax them.

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. I am actually interested in following this topic.)

[Jazzmoose]

I have a cd just of tape hiss. I put it on when my audiophile friends come over. It seems to relax them.

I went with the compilation, Tape Hiss for a Rainy Afternoon.

[etherbored]

It was released in 1996 (the disc mentions 1994 and 1996, so I guess the later date is the release date).

---

claude -

this pressing was indeed released in 1994 (28 september). the 1996 date you see refers to a date after which the japanese market could legally discount this particular pressing. there are two dates on the reverse of japanese pressings. the first refers to initial release date and the second the date after which price controls expire...

regards,

-e-

[Ron S]

I have a cd just of tape hiss. I put it on when my audiophile friends come over. It seems to relax them.

I went with the compilation, Tape Hiss for a Rainy Afternoon.

The problem with the compilation is that you don't get the newly remastered individual CD's (Tape Hiss for a Rainy Afternoon, Tape Hiss for a Sunny Day, Tape Hiss for a Mellow Evening, etc.). You really haven't heard tape hiss until you've heard it in glorious 20-bit K2 or 24-bit sound.

Edited February 1, 2005 by Ron S

[Man with the Golden Arm]

I have a cd just of tape hiss. I put it on when my audiophile friends come over. It seems to relax them.

I went with the compilation, Tape Hiss for a Rainy Afternoon.

The problem with the compilation is that you don't get the newly remastered individual CD's (Tape Hiss for a Rainy Afternoon, Tape Hiss for a Sunny Day, Tape Hiss for a Mellow Evening, etc.). You really haven't heard tape hiss until you've heard it in glorious 20-bit K2 or 24-bit sound.

...and not to mention the covers from that series that you only get with the individual discs (alas they cannot be posted in this MA14 forum) but you can almost hear the hiss of chaffing silk and chenille.

[Rooster_Ties]

I have a cd just of tape hiss. I put it on when my audiophile friends come over. It seems to relax them.

I went with the compilation, Tape Hiss for a Rainy Afternoon.

The problem with the compilation is that you don't get the newly remastered individual CD's (Tape Hiss for a Rainy Afternoon, Tape Hiss for a Sunny Day, Tape Hiss for a Mellow Evening, etc.). You really haven't heard tape hiss until you've heard it in glorious 20-bit K2 or 24-bit sound.

...and not to mention the covers from that series that you only get with the individual discs (alas they cannot be posted in this MA14 forum) but you can almost hear the hiss of chaffing silk and chenille.

I'm waiting for SACD releases of the famed tape-hiss. Damn it, what's the hold up???

[J.A.W.]

Nothing beats the old 78s!

[Ron S]

Nothing beats the old 78s!

Until the late John R.T. Davies got ahold of them--then, no more hiss! Just pure silence!

[couw]

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

[sidewinder]

For any vinyl-heads reading this thread, a good vinyl of this one to get hold of (and very cost-effective) is the 'Blue' label Liberty/UA. I've checked this one against a NY USA stereo original and it holds up extremely well, soundwise. No distortion on the cymbals - always a concern when listening to any session of that vintage with the esteemed Mr Williams on drums.

[J.A.W.]

McMaster's answer does of course beg the question WTF is going on. From what I know, the TOCJ is made from an eq'ed LP master tape, as close as you can get to the original vinyl sound. McMaster says he used the original session tapes, which may account for the discrepancy in the hiss, but not for the lack of treble or the distorted cymbals. So, wassup?

Up, some serious comment/answers would be nice.