Bop vocalese--does it hold up for you at all?

[ghost of miles]

The other night I heard Ella doing "Ool-Ya-Koo" and thought I was going to go *&%$ nuts. Granted, this isn't a subgenre that I've explored with great depth, and many who sang in such a style could sing the phone book with more melodic appeal than I'll ever be able to summon for any tune, inside a shower or out. But man, does most of what I've heard sound dated and annoying. I've tried to board the Lambert Hendricks & Ross express several times as well, and always ended up jumping into the nearest culvert pretty damned quick. Eddie Jefferson I have some time for...what are some of the better records and/or artists in this style?

Edited August 21, 2006 by ghost of miles

[king ubu]

Can't say I'm an expert but I picked up Babs Gonzalez' Blue Note disc from Lon quite some time ago and I like that one a lot - you probably have it...

Then there's this weird disc on english Spotlite, I found it in a sale last year:

Then I think I once had some Spotlite (?) LP from a friend's dad that included some cuts with Dave Lambert and someone else (another male vocalist, that is), maybe featured with Red Rodney? Can't recall for sure...

You don't like LHR, or am I understanding you wrong? If you see it, get "Newport '63" - it's with Yolande Bavan instead of Annie Ross, and the band features Clark Terry and Coleman Hawkins... a very nice disc, if you ask me! (I have it as old, jewel-case, french RCA disc, not sure if there are any US and/or later editions.)

[king ubu]

dussygoof have it:

[king ubu]

And here's a page with a few names and infos mentioned, not updated for 3 years, though...

http://ralf.org/~colomon/vocalese/vocalese.html

And if I think about it, there's a disc I got from CDbaby some time ago that has a wonderful take on Ornette's "Peace". There are a few other marvellous things on that disc, and the band includes Matana Roberts on alto, Ed Schuller on bass, and Avishai Cohen on trumpet.

Here's her website.

Her second disc is out on Tzadik but I haven't heard anything from or about it, seems like a somewhat logical place for her, though, judging from the non-jazz influences discernable on her first disc (which is a "jazz" album, for sure, whatever that means...)

Samples on CDbaby, as usual - including "Peace".

ON THE EDIT:

I realize this is not "bop vocalese" at all, but LHR aren't exactly, either... still, if you're interested, this might be nice to hear, David. She did write her own lyrics onto "Peace", so it's "vocalese" for sure...

Edited August 21, 2006 by king ubu

[ghost of miles]

Thanks for the recs, KU... yeah, so far I haven't really been able to get my ears around LH & R, though I like Annie Ross on her own. I do like Babs Gonzales and have played him several times on the radio; I'll look into your suggestions here as well.

[Matthew]

I'm not a fan of Bop vocalese or scat singing, period. Especially when I hear someone scatting, it's adios for me!

[paul secor]

For me, scat and vocalese are different deals. I'm not a big fan of either. For example, I'd rather hear Ella (when I do listen to her - not all that often) sing lyrics rather than scat. I listen to Babs Gonzales once every few years. Have to admit that I do enjoy LHR - pop music for me. Kept that Spotlite LP mainly for the Monk tracks w. Frankie Passions.

[Alexander]

I love both scat and vocalese, although they are two completely different styles of singing. I'm a big LH&R fan, as well as a fan of both Annie Ross and Jon Hendricks solo material (Hendrick's "Freddie Freeloader" album is a favorite. The title track, in which Hendricks, Al Jarreau, Bobby McFerrin, and George Benson sing the cut from "Kind of Blue," is a classic). I love King Pleasure's music, as well as Blossom Dearie and Bob Dorough. Yes, it's dated, but I'm big into that late 50s/early 60s sound.

Scatting is a different skill entirely, and when it's done well, there's nothing like it. Curiously, I discovered a track on Bob Marley's "Kaya" where HE does some wonderful scatting!

[Kalo]

For me, a little scatting goes a long way.

And a smaller amount of vocalese goes even further...

[king ubu]

Hm, somehow I find the general negativity and lack of interest towards vocal jazz rather astonishing... I am not someone who listens to vocal jazz of whatever kind (songs, scat, vocalese) all the time, but it's part of the whole thing we call jazz... and hey, the old ones knew you couldn't play a standard without knowing it's clichéd words about love and joy and sadness (and death?)...

Sheila Jordan's Monk album (with Clifford Jordan), reissued in Bluebird's First Edition digipack series with several bonus tracks, is another prime example. I think she only has words for the themes, though, and they're not her own, I assume (don't have it at hand).

Then of course she does wonders on her Blue Note album, mainly with these Oscar Brown Jr. lyrics, twisting them around for her daughter etc - beautiful! That disc, with Swallow, Galbraith and Denzil Best, is one of the greatest modern jazz vocal discs I know.

And Oscar Brown Jr. is the next name, then... his "Sin and Soul" (Sony/Legacy) is another favourite - feel-good music of high quality, with some tunes being classics, notably "Work Song" and "Dat Dere" (which is the one Sheila adapted), and "Signifyin' Monkey" is such a fune tune... I love that disc!

Again, his words are for tunes, not solos, so...

[Free For All]

I'm not a fan of the cutisie "swing choir" doot-doo-doobie-doot thing. As a matter of fact, I've got a tape somewhere that someone gave me that is a compilation of bad scatting at a college jazz festival. It's funny as hell. The use of awkward/overused/jive syllables is the main thing that makes it lame IMHO.

That being said, often the best way to convey many of the concepts of jazz articulation, rhythm and swing in a rehearsal situation is by singing. When I rehearse a band I often sing specific figures (more "rhythmic" singing than "melodic" singing) and I have students sing figures to me. We've talked about this on another thread, but removing the obstacle that the instrument creates can really help to learn a jazz rhythmic concept.

It's interesting how horn players historically have borrowed from singers and vice-versa. One thing I do appreciate as an instrumentalist is when a vocal scat solo actually follows the chord changes and form. Once the vocal improvising begins, I evaluate it with the same criteria I would use for any other improvising musician. I think where I (and most instrumentalists) learn from singers is primarily in the area of phrasing, most often pertaining to ballads. And as ubu said, knowing the lyrics when performing a ballad is essential for a horn player.

[JSngry]

For me, vocalese usually stands or falls on the merits of the lyrics (and a stipulation to a "pop" estheic at some point or another is granted w/o objection). On those grounds, Jon Hendricks scores more often than not, and Eddie Jefferson, for whom I used to have a great deal of love, is starting to fade. Exceptions to both are there, though.

Scatting, though, I dunno. When jazz was a more purely rhythmic music, hey, it was hard to fuck up (although many did anyway. There's some in every crowd, I guess). But once the harmony got more complicated, the need for a concurrent maturation of the scat didn't seem t keep up. Dizzy, Moody, Hendricks, a few others dealt. Not too many more. And then there's Betty Carter, whose scatting isn't really "scatting" at all. She's inhabiting the space with her voice, if you know what I mean.

Now, with post-bop and free firmly behind us (or getting there), what's the need for "scatting" per se? Just sing dammit, whatever that means at any given time. To paraphrase Monk, you got a voice, use it.

[mikeweil]

I love jazz vocals in general, and scatting and vocalese in particular - I have an almost complete collection of the masters of the latter.

Jon Hendricks is the James Joyce of Jive!

[Jim R]

For me, vocalese usually stands or falls on the merits of the lyrics (and a stipulation to a "pop" estheic at some point or another is granted w/o objection). On those grounds, Jon Hendricks scores more often than not, and Eddie Jefferson, for whom I used to have a great deal of love, is starting to fade. Exceptions to both are there, though.

That's my feeling as well. I've always dug Eddie's voice to some degree (and as long as I'm mentioning actual voice quality, Hendricks drew the shorter straw there, I'd have to say), but his lyrics have never really done it for me on a consistent level. Hendricks, on the other hand... Of course, it's the proverbial apples and oranges. Two totally different approaches, but for me, Eddie's lyrics- while they can be fun- just don't have the depth and interest of those of Hendricks.

I'm with Alexander re Hendricks' "Freddie Freeloader" CD. The Manhattan Transfer's "Vocalese" album (with Hendricks, Dizzy Gillespie, the Basie orch., Tommy Flanagan, Richard Davis, Philly Joe Jones, James Moody, Bobby McFerrin, McCoy Tyner, Ron Carter, Grady Tate, Walter Davis Jr., Richie Cole, and Dick Hindman) is another relatively modern example that's worth picking up. For the older stuff, I always dug LH&R's "The Swingers" on World Pac (oop).

I've gotten more and more tired of scatting, but I think it still has its place. As long as it's done well (please, no more of those Mel-via-Ella cliche-ge-ge-ge-ges ).

[Ed S]

Don't like scatting very much at all - it usually sends me to the CD changer to advance to the next song. But I'll tolerate it in the right setting.

Not too familiar with the whole vacalese thing. I know Lambert Hendricks and Ross, Gonzalez and some of the others, but don't have anything by them. I guess I associate vocalese with the likes of the Manhattan Transfer and some really lame ass lyrics written for jazz songs. Sorry if I offend or am exposing my ignorance of vocalese but I hear some version of WR's Birdland with lyrics and I want to jump off a bridge. Over the years I've heard some others that have done zero for me.

All that said - and let the snickering begin - but I really dig Kurt Elling's version of Minuano - if that fall into the category of vocalese (as I understand it)

[ghost of miles]

King Ubu,

I love vocal jazz and jazz singing; doing Afterglow every week is only increasing my enthusiasm for the genre. It's vocalese that seems to really get on my nerves. I'd like to be a bit more open to it, I suppose, which is one of the reasons why I started the thread... I figured other posters here with an affection for said vocalese could offer up some suggestions, some explanation for why they like it, etc. It's obviously a vocal skill, but one for which I (so far) have next to no appreciation. I have several LH & Ross CDs but just can't bring myself to put them on again yet. Oddly enough, one group I do sort of enjoy is Les Blues Stars--can't really say why, though. Oh, and I dig (ducks incoming flames) the Four Freshmen's version of "Intermission Riff" on the Mosaic box; very early, somewhat-vocalese effort from the FF.

Edited August 22, 2006 by ghost of miles

[ds0823]

All that said - and let the snickering begin - but I really dig Kurt Elling's version of Minuano - if that fall into the category of vocalese (as I understand it)

I also dig Kurt's version of Resolution, he had a concert in Taipei (where I'm from) last weekend, it was a great one.

I had an interviewed with him @ where I work, he told me lots about vocalese and scatting, music from Mark Murphy, Eddie Jefferson and Jon Hendricks. That was pretty cool

I love scatting more than vocalese, the only reason is that I don't have to follow the lyrics while cats scatting.

English isn't my language afterall......

[king ubu]

David, my post was not at all directed at you, just to make sure! The fact that you started this thread already opposes a general lack of interest for vocals. It were some of the later reactions that I didn't enjoy that much...

Thanks for FFA and Sangrey for turning in interesting points here!

I don't know Jefferson besides some Moody sideman things, so I can't really say a lot, but the lyrics of Hendricks, as Mike has pointed out, are eternally hip, in most cases I know.

As for LHR: I enjoy their "Sing a Song of Basie" album very, very much (it's been reissued as VME some years back) - Annie Ross doing the high trumpets is giving me chills again and again, just plain astonishing... and "Fiesta in Blue" is soooo nice!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I can't say I particularly like scatting or vocalese but one alum I REALLY like is Joe Carroll's "The man with the happy sound". It helps that there is Grant Green and Conrad Lester in the band, of course. But Joe's singing is always amusing and on the button. Happy sound is dead right.

MG

[LAL]

I'm crazy about jazz vocals - so in general it's all good. -_-

Re Ayelet Rose Gottlieb: Here's the latest Tzadik release - Mayim Rabim-Great Waters

Mr. Jurek has written a fairly lengthy and glowing review of it.

And if I think about it, there's a disc I got from CDbaby some time ago that has a wonderful take on Ornette's "Peace". There are a few other marvellous things on that disc, and the band includes Matana Roberts on alto, Ed Schuller on bass, and Avishai Cohen on trumpet.

Here's her website.

Her second disc is out on Tzadik but I haven't heard anything from or about it, seems like a somewhat logical place for her, though, judging from the non-jazz influences discernable on her first disc (which is a "jazz" album, for sure, whatever that means...)

Samples on CDbaby, as usual - including "Peace".

ON THE EDIT:

I realize this is not "bop vocalese" at all, but LHR aren't exactly, either... still, if you're interested, this might be nice to hear, David. She did write her own lyrics onto "Peace", so it's "vocalese" for sure...

[Kalo]

Hm, somehow I find the general negativity and lack of interest towards vocal jazz rather astonishing.

I'm a big fan of jazz vocals and have posted in threads on the topic here. I just don't like most scat; after Armstrong, Leo Watson, and Ella the scat pickings get mighty thin, in my opinion.

Vocalese is basically a novelty thing and I can enjoy it on that basis. But after one tune or so the novelty wears off for me.

[Kalo]

For me, vocalese usually stands or falls on the merits of the lyrics (and a stipulation to a "pop" estheic at some point or another is granted w/o objection). On those grounds, Jon Hendricks scores more often than not, and Eddie Jefferson, for whom I used to have a great deal of love, is starting to fade. Exceptions to both are there, though.

Scatting, though, I dunno. When jazz was a more purely rhythmic music, hey, it was hard to fuck up (although many did anyway. There's some in every crowd, I guess). But once the harmony got more complicated, the need for a concurrent maturation of the scat didn't seem t keep up. Dizzy, Moody, Hendricks, a few others dealt. Not too many more. And then there's Betty Carter, whose scatting isn't really "scatting" at all. She's inhabiting the space with her voice, if you know what I mean.

Now, with post-bop and free firmly behind us (or getting there), what's the need for "scatting" per se? Just sing dammit, whatever that means at any given time. To paraphrase Monk, you got a voice, use it.

Good points, as usual.

The problem with a lot of the vocalese lyrics is that they're just banal stuff name-checking the musician who played the original solo. About 25 years ago I heard a particularly heinous folkie vocalese cover of "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," and I'm still trying to get those damn words out of my head.

[Jim R]

Hm, somehow I find the general negativity and lack of interest towards vocal jazz rather astonishing.

I'm a big fan of jazz vocals and have posted in threads on the topic here. I just don't like most scat; after Armstrong, Leo Watson, and Ella the scat pickings get mighty thin, in my opinion.

I think Sarah deserves some props here too. Also, the aforementioned Joe Carroll. Actually, I think there are quite a few others who have done it well, but it tended to happen in smaller doses (especially if we're comparing people with Ella and Louis). That's good, imo, because like vocalese, I think it's better to listen to it in smaller doses.

Vocalese is basically a novelty thing...

I know what you mean, but I'd say that's a bit harsh (and taken along with some of the other comments here, I guess I've been nudged over the edge ). It really is very much an endeavor that requires great artistic skill (and I know that the requirement isn't always fulfilled). I think it really helps to read the lyrics, if possible, to better appreciate what someone like Jon Hendricks has accomplished. Hell, if you don't have access to them in written form, you may not be able to get them all, at the rate he sometimes squeezed phrases in to fit the music.

To amend what I said in my previous post, I often realize that I can really appreciate Hendricks most of the time (despite what I referred to as a somewhat weak voice), but L,H&R appealed to me less as a group. I can appreciate and enjoy Dave Lambert to some extent, but Annie Ross never really won me over... and that's being polite about it (just personal taste... I recognize her talent, and all that). So, I'm more likely to listen to "Freddie Freeloader" or the Manhattan Transfer's "Vocalese" than an L,H&R disc.

I guess I've been a bit frustrated a bit over the years on this board by people bashing vocalese (and in some cases, jazz vocals in general) while simultaneously admitting that they're "not very familiar with it". I know... the chances are fairly good that these people will never like it (and fair enough), but at least try it out for awhile (and/or learn something about it) before you pee on it. [btw, this is a generalization about a sense I've gotten from many threads and posters, so I'm not trying to point a finger at anybody who's posted here- in fact I haven't tried to zero in on who said what. Fwiw...] At any rate, I'll admit that there's a lot of crap out there, but one can look for something potentially good, give it a chance, and go from there.

[Chuck Nessa]

It sucks from every direction.

[Peter Friedman]

Long ago (many many decades) when I first developed an interest in jazz I was a big fan of scat singing. Over time that interest strongly faded. There are very few examples of scat singing that I now enjoy hearing.

Vocalese is a very different thing. I do very much like a large percentage of Eddie Jefferson's recordings. Yes, there is a novelty aspect to it, but there is nothing wrong with that. Singers such as Louis Jordan and many others performed novelty songs regularly and they were and still are a lot of fun. Does everything have to be deadly serious? Why not have some fun with the music every now and then.

Among the many Eddie Jefferson vocalese songs I like are Dexter Digs In, When You're Smiling, Ornithology, Body And Soul, Parker's Mood, So What, and The Birdland Story. It can be fun to play the original instrumental version of the tune (for example, Bean's- Body And Soul), and then to play Eddie Jefferson's vocalese version.