Most Overrated 50's-60's Blue Notes

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

AMEN JAZZ SOUL BROTHER. DB 4 EVR::::does anyone know where the man lives now. is he still in nyc?

[John L]

We partied pretty hard to Stepping Into Tomorrow back in the day. It was just the right soundtrack for losing virginity.

[andybleaden]

When he found out that he wasn't getting royalties for his hit album, "A new perspective", because he'd signed a cash contract with BN, he didn't bitch; he moved to Verve,

MG

[andybleaden]

but yes I agree he was a hero for me ....very diverse lps over a wide career. Not all smashes or huge hits...even his hits were panned by the jazz fraternity but some stonkin lps all the same.

I still regularly entertained by both Electric Byrd AND Fancy Free AND Free Form

As for whether I have overrated lps from this period- yeh plenty by a veriety I have not enjoyed or do not share others opinion. Big Deal

I never did get abuzz from the Kenny Clarke thing nor did I really enjoy some of Jimmy Smiths LPs but thats no problem...still got em and maybe should sell em. Perhaps that is the part of my stamp collecting type of interest in the music.

Would not be the first or last who hung onto to cds /lps for that reason. Maybe I should sell em- but I will probably not

A

[felser]

I spit upon the NEA awards and the Nobel Peace Prize committie until they both recocknoize DB on the Nat'l and then Int'l levels

Yep, let's boycott the NEA and the Nobel Peace Prize until they see the light and award the Mizell Brothers and the Blackbyrds!

[Shawn]

Inevitably, I'll add, this winds up being a "favorites/I like/don't like" thread. Someone out there thinks that too much praise is heaped on Speak No Evil.

Agreed.

I would put Feelin' The Spirit in the classics genre, it nails the mood perfectly. If you adore Midnight Blue, Idle Moments & Blue Hour...Feelin' The Spirit is probably also a favorite (or it should be).

[Guest the mommy]

actually did i defend "symphony for improvisors"? i agree "complete communion" is world better and i enjoy "where is brooklyn?" a lot more too. however i think this is because "symphony" has too many cooks in it (including karl berger, who i often find to be a "just happy to be here among the greats" kind of player).

chewy chew chew-why are you giving byrd all the credit and the mizells so little? surely they deserve most of the credit for 1974-ish byrd funk. i would argue they could have thrown any trumpeter into those settings almost and the results would have been pretty close. it isn't like byrd was doing any of the writing, really.

and jsangrey, marion brown recorded 4 impulse! albums. i guess they were spread out over about 10 years, but i think brown's impulse! ouvre is a nice little piece of work (though only "three for shepp" and "sweet earth flying" really do it for me).

[JSngry]

sidenote: how do ya'll rank Johnny Griffin's Riverside leader sessions, & those different contexts? (Not including Griff & Jaws, which we all know is straight fire.)

I think that griff was significantly better served at Riverside than at BN, although whether or not that was as much a matter of his own maturing as anything else, I'm not ready to say. But Riverside was definitely more amenable to different/expanded/whatever settings than was BN, for whatever reason.

Now, about Unit Structures, again, some historical perspective is called for. You gotta remember that prior to that, the last Cecil date that was out there was the Into The Hot material, and that that was still "Cecil playing over time". (I know that some of the Montmartre stuff was released in the US on Fantasy/Debut, but A)that was a trio date, B)Fantasy back in those days was not all that widely distributed except for a few "hits", and C)I don't know exactly when that album was released. Anyway, good luck finding a copy, then or now).

Anyway, Unit Structures was the first side with profile (and quite possibly the first side period) to present Cecil Taylor's music in the form that we all know today. It could be argued that pretty much everything that's come since is an expansion on what was first documented on that album. So afaic, it's "classic" status is a no-brainer, even if the music wasn't as incredible as it is ("Enter Evening" alone is one for the ages, & getting an alternate of it on the CD was a gift from on high). He'd have come out (no pun intended) somewhere sooner or later, but this is where it happened, and there ain't no changing that. There literally was no Cecil Taylor music like this on record before Unit Structures, but there's been plenty of it since. So I say you gotta give recording props to the recorded archetype.

Edited December 5, 2006 by JSngry

[JSngry]

and jsangrey, marion brown recorded 4 impulse! albums. i guess they were spread out over about 10 years, but i think brown's impulse! ouvre is a nice little piece of work (though only "three for shepp" and "sweet earth flying" really do it for me).

Yes, I know that. But only the first was done for the Theile-led Impulse! The others were done after Ed Michel took over at the label. Different deal altogether, and outside the scope of this discussion, I think.

[JSngry]

oh Unicorn Structures & John the Conqueroo are deathless, i think. i hope noone read any implied criticism there-- i was just thinking, knowing Cecil's past & now knowing his future, what we might have got if he had been afforded Andrew Hill-like studio time. I'm glad the FAH (fake-ass Haitian, said now with endearment) got it but... whoa-- imagine Cecil too? i 'admire' the '69 blowout w/Cyrille, Jimmy & Sam but...

Cecil was too big to fit into BN for any longer than he did, especially after Lion quit. Hille, remember, had a bit of a sabbatical around the time Lion left, and he definitely made a different type of music upon returning (again though, that sabbatical and the change in music might have been a personal change as much as anything).

Really, we can play the "what if" game for a lot of scenarios, and this Cecil/BN thing is definitely a major one, but I don't know if but that by doing so we run the risk of building up some subliminal resentment against what really did happen because of what could have but didn't. Hell, it happens to me, especially when I hear In The World & wonder where the fuck damn near all the rest of that music was studio-time-wise during that time. Hill's gain at BN didn't necessarily come at Cecil's expense, dig? Theile could've done it just as easily, no? But Impulse! was pretty much TraneTown, and that was that. You gotta think that Stollman could've at least made a play (and maybe he did?). Lion did what Lion did, and that's how it went down.

Hey -fate is a cruel bitch sometimes, and if anybody can find a way around that, they can have my momma's car, my wife's negligees (very tasty, picked most of 'em out myself, with an eye for detail), and my other tenor.

[brownie]

You gotta think that Stollman could've at least made a play (and maybe he did?). Lion did what Lion did, and that's how it went down.

Stollman wanted and did make a play. CT did not want.

Friends who attended the Unit Structures recording session said it was not a very happy scene. CT did not like the way RVG captured the sound.

Edited December 5, 2006 by brownie

[andybleaden]

I must admit there are also ones that I get into and out of. For years I never ever dug my Coleman Blue Notes and yet realistically there are times now when I can get lost in the Stockholm/Golden Circle concert.

It is the same with dare I say it the later Morgan stuff which I have got more and more into and then less dependent on his 50's material. However I feel that is a two way process as I have found as I move on I go off say Hanks later stuff and go back to his earliy stuff---you get the picture.

The possible exceptions are the follow on albums from the big hits such as Sidewinder or New Perspective which although understandable ...never really had the capability of the original

[paul secor]

sidenote: how do ya'll rank Johnny Griffin's Riverside leader sessions, & those different contexts? (Not including Griff & Jaws, which we all know is straight fire.)

I think that griff was significantly better served at Riverside than at BN, although whether or not that was as much a matter of his own maturing as anything else, I'm not ready to say. But Riverside was definitely more amenable to different/expanded/whatever settings than was BN, for whatever reason.

Now, about Unit Structures, again, some historical perspective is called for. You gotta remember that prior to that, the last Cecil date that was out there was the Into The Hot material, and that that was still "Cecil playing over time". (I know that some of the Montmartre stuff was released in the US on Fantasy/Debut, but A)that was a trio date, B)Fantasy back in those days was not all that widely distributed except for a few "hits", and C)I don't know exactly when that album was released. Anyway, good luck finding a copy, then or now).

Anyway, Unit Structures was the first side with profile (and quite possibly the first side period) to present Cecil Taylor's music in the form that we all know today. It could be argued that pretty much everything that's come since is an expansion on what was first documented on that album. So afaic, it's "classic" status is a no-brainer, even if the music wasn't as incredible as it is ("Enter Evening" alone is one for the ages, & getting an alternate of it on the CD was a gift from on high). He'd have come out (no pun intended) somewhere sooner or later, but this is where it happened, and there ain't no changing that. There literally was no Cecil Taylor music like this on record before Unit Structures, but there's been plenty of it since. So I say you gotta give recording props to the recorded archetype.

Agreed.

I was at a public preconcert discussion with Cecil Taylor in maybe March '66 where he remarked that his group was going to record for Blue Note. He made the comment that Alfred Lion liked to make the musicians he recorded sound like Miles' band - he probably meant some of the Herbie/Shorter/Hubbard stuff - and added wryly that he didn't think that their record would sound like that.

I'm happy for the two Cecil sides that BN issued. & I'm happy for the Cherry's, the Ornettes, & the Dolphy.

I'm not much of a Hill fan - except for Pt. of Departure and possible Judgement -, but I'm happy that BN recorded him too. Different companies did what they did, and I listen to what I listen to. Not much point in playing what if.

brownie's post wasn't there when I wrote the first paragraph above. Obviously, Cecil wasn't enamored of the BN/RVG sound.

Edited December 5, 2006 by paul secor

[JSngry]

You gotta think that Stollman could've at least made a play (and maybe he did?). Lion did what Lion did, and that's how it went down.

Stollman wanted and did make a play. CT did not want.

And that probably happened more than once with more than one label during that time?

[Big Al]

Andrew Hill I find overrated in general, and the insane touting that his BNs get contributes to this. But to each their own.

Right also. Except for "Point of departure".

No kidding? I think that one is his most overrated. Not even close to Judgement or Dance with Death.

[JSngry]

Well, I'm of the mind that for sheer dancing delight, nothing comes remotely close to Andrew!!!, so that just goes to show ya'...

[Shawn]

I will say this - other than Royal Flush, there's no Donald Byrd album I'd just have to have.

Wow, I find that surprising. To me, the Byrd's are some of the most enjoyable Blue Note sessions.

I think I could live without most of the Hubbard, Shorter, Henderson dates (except for Goin' Up, Etc & Our Thing)

[clifford_thornton]

I think something is getting lost here in the name of historical context (which I used to argue for all the time, but if this is truly living music, then that history is a very fluid thing), and that's personal taste. I can not dig Fuchsia Swing Song, despite some very fine playing, for the reason that it doesn't grab me and for whatever selfish tendencies I may abide by, it's been hard for me to understand why others' undies get bunched. But that's not to dissuade anyone from liking it, or to dissuade me from saying the only Rivers BN I actually come back to regularly is Dimensions and Extensions (feat. Donald Byrd!).

My "historical context" only goes so far - sure, the Marzette on ESP is a messy affair and a child of its time, but for whatever reason, I love it. Schlippenbach's Living Music is an all-star aggregation but it bores me to tears. BN was amazingly consistent but maybe that's part of its problem, or at least my problem with the whole thing (my other problem being fetishization of BN at the expense of other worthy fetishes). I think it's important to be aware of context, but what matters equally is a work's ability to hold up to standards that have been created and nurtured since that time. Not in a vacuum, per se, but from a different point of reference. That as much makes the case for the excellence of BN dates that, at the time, went unnoticed as well as making the case for what, at the time, may have been touted but which now seems very, very sub par.

FWIW: I love Tina Brooks. I like Mobley a lot. I like the Hubbard BNs - most of 'em, anyway - quite a bit. For my money, DC's music was MUCH better live or at least in concert recordings than in the studio. The endearing ragtag assembly of it was often lost when the studio light was on. Cecil's BNs are great if ill-recorded; strangely I feel the same way about Anthony Williams' dates. Personally, I'll let others make the case for Hill and Henderson because I don't have it in me, though I can get with the latter's sideman BN appearances in a few cases. The LaRoca is the shit.

[Big Al]

I will say this - other than Royal Flush, there's no Donald Byrd album I'd just have to have.

Wow, I find that surprising. To me, the Byrd's are some of the most enjoyable Blue Note sessions.

I think I could live without most of the Hubbard, Shorter, Henderson dates (except for Goin' Up, Etc & Our Thing)

What, did you sell me your extra copy or something?

Totally agree about the Byrds, especially when paired with either Pepper Adams or Jackie McLean (oh yes, OFF TO THE RACES!!!).

[RDK]

What do you all think about Unit Structures? It is often cited as one of Cecil Taylor's absolute masterpieces, and often recommended as the first Cecil Taylor album to buy. It is one of my least favorite 60s-70s Cecil Taylor albums.

Agree with you re: Unit Structures. I've never really warmed to it, though I've since come around and now really like Conquistador.

Out to Lunch is certainly a masterpiece, although I have never been a huge fan of it relative to other Dolphy.

I'm a big Dolphy fan as well, but OTL is perhaps my least favorite of his albums.

[clifford_thornton]

The Byrds lost a GIANT when Gene Clark split and tho' Notorious Byrd Brothers is brilliant, little of anything that followed ranks. Gram wasn't good 'til later & you can get yr Clarence White better elsewhere.

through the morning, through the night--

c

[clifford_thornton]

What do people here think of Emmylou Harris? I haven't been able to "go there" yet, but I wonder what tree I should be barking up?

[paul secor]

I'm going to knock Blue Note, but I do think that BN's canonization has gotten way out of hand. They did certain things well. They developed certain artists and started their careers. They made sure that their recording dates were rehearsed and that their records were of a certain level because of that - tho they may have lost a certain amount of spontaineity by doing that. And they stayed in business for a long time, and that's no small thing.

That said, if you look at the two other major east coast independent jazz labels, you can find certain things that they did well, and certain people they recorded that didn't show up at Blue Note.

Riverside nurtured a number of artists - Wes, Cannonball, Bill Evans, Blue Mitchell, Johnny Griffin, Monk (I realize that the latter two recorded for BN before they recorded for Riverside, but Riverside took more care and used more imagination in the presentation of their music). I've always wondered if Riverside went under because their major artists left the fold, or if the artists left because the label was going under. (I realize that Monk left earlier, but the others left within a fairly short time frame.)

Riverside also recorded a number of artists as leaders who didn't show up at Blue Note - many for stylistic reasons:

James Clay

Joe Albany/Warne Marsh

Budd Johnson

Wilbur Ware

Elmer Snowden

The JFK Quintet

Louis Cottrell

Ernie Henry

Don Friedman

Barry Harris

Jimmy Heath

Not knocking Blue Note, but their (Alfred Lion's?) frame of interest was much smaller - especially in later years. BN recorded swing musicians and some boppers early on, but once hard bop hit, they didn't look much further.

Prestige is a whole other story. They were able to stay in business. From my understanding, they did it by keeping costs low, and, if certain musicians are to be believed, by ripping off the musicians they recorded. I don't know if the latter accusation is true, so I won't go there.

Prestige was also not in the business of establishing musicians' careers. They were more of the hit and run - put it out and then record someone else - mentality. Then again, even Prestige tried to develop certain artists - Gene Ammons, Jack McDuff, Eric Dolphy, Jaki Byard, some of their organists. (Perhaps Prestige wasn't interested in developing artists - just in continuing to record artists who sold - tho I don't know where Jaki Byard would fit in there.)

But - The list of artists who recorded for Prestige who didn't get and probably couldn't have gotten a Blue Note date looms large:

Tiny Grimes

Buck Clayton

Al Casey

Walt Dickerson

Lem Winchester

Shorty Baker & Doc Cheatham

Lonnie Johnson

Hal Singer

Buddy Tate

Don Ellis

Jon Eardley

Mal Waldron

Scrapper Blackwell

Barry Harris (as leader)

Coleman Hawkins

Gigi Gryce

Taft Jordan

Eddie Kirkland

Steve Lacy

Guitar Pete Franklin

Claude Hopkins

Teddy Charles

Jaki Byard (as leader)

Otis Spann

A lot of great music would be lost if only Blue Note had existed back then. And I fear that a lot of people who canonize Blue Note and listen to Blue Note records to the exclusion of other music are missing out on a lot. There have been a few threads on this Forum devoted to other record labels, but they don't compare to the threads devoted to Blue Note - and the Blue Note threads keep on coming.

I guess what I want to say is that labels recorded what they recorded, and that's what we have to listen to. Blue Note was an important record label, but perhaps it wasn't the most important label. And whatever your opinion on that statement, there's definitely much, much more out there than Blue Note.

Edited December 5, 2006 by paul secor

[brownie]

brownie's post wasn't there when I wrote the first paragraph above. Obviously, Cecil wasn't enamored of the BN/RVG sound.

Cecil wasn't enamorated with the RVG sound. Period.

When CT was in Paris in 1966 - that was before I heard those two BNs - we had arguments about the way RVG captured the Miles Davis Quintet on those Prestige sessions. I was trying to defend that sound, Cecil was against!

Hard to win against Cecil Taylor I didn't!

[paul secor]

The Byrds lost a GIANT when Gene Clark split and tho' Notorious Byrd Brothers is brilliant, little of anything that followed ranks. Gram wasn't good 'til later & you can get yr Clarence White better elsewhere.

through the morning, through the night--

c

That lightens things up.

I'm not enough of a Byrds' fan to comment, but I do know that they gained when David Crosby split - The Asshole of the Earth.