Elvin in 1957

[CJ Shearn]

As far as I know, at least what I have listened to, Elvin's first appearances on record date back from 1957. On Sonny's Vanguard stuff, Elvin definitely is playing in that more conventional bop mode, but theres the polyrhythms forming and a circular sense of time. Back when these sides came out, was there feeling that Elvin was doing something new, or did that something really "new" hit in 1961 when he joined Trane? Personally I can hear it on those "Night at the Vanguard" dates with Newk.

[Soul Stream]

As far as I know, at least what I have listened to, Elvin's first appearances on record date back from 1957. On Sonny's Vanguard stuff, Elvin definitely is playing in that more conventional bop mode, but theres the polyrhythms forming and a circular sense of time. Back when these sides came out, was there feeling that Elvin was doing something new, or did that something really "new" hit in 1961 when he joined Trane? Personally I can hear it on those "Night at the Vanguard" dates with Newk.

I think Elvin was pretty much always Elvin. I hear it on the Sonny stuff too. Sure, he really came into his own with Trane, but his concept was pure from the get-go more or less it seems. I don't think we can fully appreciate the watermark that Elvin had on jazz drumming. The pre-Elvin drummer and post-Elvin drummer in jazz are very different animals.

[mikeweil]

When I consider his pre-Coltrane recordings, he always sounded different: a very light sound, lots of ride cymbal variations, complex snare-bass combinations, unorthodox asymmetric solo phrases, tricky references to the basic tempo - it was all there. Only his sound got heavier with the years.

Edited April 20, 2007 by mikeweil

[jazzbo]

Elvin recorded earlier than those Sonny sides!

I agree that the seeds of the later Elvin were there in the earlier Elvin. But he did "bloom" to my ears just before and just within the Coltrane sphere of influence. (Maybe that's just how I hear it or want to hear it).

[JSngry]

I too wonder how early Elvin sounded to a jazz world that didn't have later Elvin to compare him to.

[WD45]

Just picked up the Newk VV date, and was pleased to hear of all of the solo solo time Elvin got. Superb!

[CJ Shearn]

interesting thoughts mikeweil and Soulstream.

[medjuck]

Bobby Jasper wrote an essay about Elvin's druming behind JJ and Jasper. You can find part of it in the notes to the JJ Mosaic set.

[mikeweil]

The Bobby Jaspar Riverside (i.e. Elvin's solo work on it) is the perfect illustration to this and my post above:

[donald byrd 4 EVA]

as far as im concerned, there is elvin and then there is everyone else

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

yes i agree elvin was always elivin, eg. farmers markert

[mikeweil]

When I think of the impact Elvin had on local jazz drummers - it goes so far that they seem to think jazz drumming started with him and they hardly care to deeply check out the stylists before him except when they start playing. Only Jack deJohnette's impact is comparable, but he came out of Elvin (and Tony Williams). Elvin had more impact because I think the guys over here listened to Coltrane more than to Miles from the 1960's. And Elvin toured here frequently with his Jazz machine, whereas Tony was in Europe only on festivals, rarely with his own band, and this was so much into black music or fusion at the time that most jazz musicians rejected it. Elvin somehow was much more accessible as a rodel model, too. That freewheeling approach was sympathetic to most drummers here, beacuse they found a justification to let go and play themselves instead of just backing up the band and keeping time - to the extent that some don't really know how to do that, IMO - I'm speaking of semi-pros, of course, the pros have it all down.

Edited April 21, 2007 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

Also from 1957:

I find myself listening to this and wondering how Frank Wess (the most "conservvative" of this aggregation) must have felt having Elvin play behind him. He sounds really invigorated by it, even with today's ears.

Back in the day, Elvin was frequently described as "the ultimate hard bop drummer" or something along those lines. Well, yeah, ok, I can see that. And I can also hear the revolutionary/evolutionary implications of his introduction of (more overt) polyrhythms. But the thing that gets me about all of Elvin, and especially the earlier stuff, is just how damn loose he is. It really opens up a new dimension of swing, having that loose of a feel for the basic time.

The "style" would be refined as time went by. But the feel was in place from the git-go. The style would be widely imitated & replicated, but the feel would seldom be.

[Larry Kart]

That Jaspar essay is fascinating. Two other interesting examples of early Elvin are the trio album "Tommy Flanagan Overseas" (the J.J. rhythm section of the time, rec. in Sweden, with Elvin on brushes throughout but often very aggressive and well-recorded), and half of Red Rodney's "The Red Arrow," a terrific record. The front line is Red and Ira Sullivan, mostly on tenor and in superb form; the drummer on the other half is Philly Joe (interesting contrast), the pianist is Flanagan, and the bassist is Oscar Pettiford! Originally on Signal, has been reissued on LP and CD, and I hope it's still availabe. Here's a link to a UK site that has the original cover:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/1957-DVD-AUDIO-Red...y/dp/B00005YC5N

[Larry Kart]

It's here, as "Red Rodney 1957" (the original title) from Amazon U.S., but it's rather pricey:

http://www.amazon.com/1957-Red-Rodney/dp/B...4163&sr=1-6

[brownie]

The Bobby Jaspar essay on Elvin Jones was first published in the April 1958 issue of Jazz Hot under the title 'The Jones Renew the Language of the Drums'. It described the playing of Elvin and Philly Joe Jones. The original article was accompanied by notes from André Hodeir.

Jaspar mentioned the problems he had dealing at first with the complexities of Elvin Jones' drumming and how when he grasped the intricacies he managed to develop further his own style.

[Swinging Swede]

jazzdisco.org has an Elvin Jones Discography, even if it isn't on the main page yet. It shows that Elvin recorded one session in 1948, one in 1955, 8 in 1956 and 14 in 1957 before the Village Vanguard set. I haven't heard the 1948 Detroit session, but that one in particular should be interesting for those who want to compare early Elvin.

[kh1958]

jazzdisco.org has an Elvin Jones Discography, even if it isn't on the main page yet. It shows that Elvin recorded one session in 1948, one in 1955, 8 in 1956 and 14 in 1957 before the Village Vanguard set. I haven't heard the 1948 Detroit session, but that one in particular should be interesting for those who want to compare early Elvin.

The 1948 Elvin is on one of those purple/yellow label Savoys, an anthology called Swing... Not Spring! I thought the date was a typo.

[Peter Friedman]

Elvin was already with Coltrane (and had made some recordings with him for Atlantic and Impulse) when the Riverside date titled "Elvin" was recorded in 1961. After becoming associated with Trane, it is interesting to hear him with his two brothers Thad and Hank, as well as the two Franks - Wess and Foster. I find this session highly enjoyable.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Peter Friedman

[Chas]

Two other interesting examples of early Elvin are the trio album "Tommy Flanagan Overseas" (the J.J. rhythm section of the time, rec. in Sweden, with Elvin on brushes throughout but often very aggressive and well-recorded).....

That's one I always have to listen to twice , because on the first run through Elvin's brilliant brushwork distracts me from a proper appreciation of what is a very good Tommy Flanagan performance . Masterful is the word that comes to mind . Elvin really was the complete drummer .

[Soul Stream]

One Elvin Jones performance I didn't care for much was the sessions he did with Hank Jones and Art Davis billed as the Great Jazz Trio I believe. I didn't thing the brothers playing jelled at all. Elvin didn't seem to want to play a supportive role all that much. I great example of Elvin being a total team player was the sessions he did with Larry Young for Blue Note....very sublime.

[CJ Shearn]

yes Elvin really was complete, right till the end.