monkboughtlunch Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 Anyone have any information on if these sessions still exist in the Verve vaults? And who were the sidemen? Any chance of a release? Grant Green and others Grant Green (g) and others NYC, August 5, 1965 65VK427 Iron City March Verve unissued 65VK428 Angel - 65VK429 Fat Judy - 65VK430 Samba De Orfeu - 65VK431 Chim Chim Cheree - Grant Green and others same personnel NYC, September 1, 1965 65VK458 Things Ain't What They Used To Be Verve unissued 65VK459 Moon Over All - 65VK460 I Can't Stop Loving You - 65VK461 High Heel Sneakers - 65VK462 Blues Train - 65VK463 Sunday, Monday Or Always - 65VK464 Fever - 65VK465 Dream - 65VK466 Uptown - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 Anyone have any information on if these sessions still exist in the Verve vaults? And who were the sidemen? Any chance of a release? Grant Green and others Grant Green (g) and others NYC, August 5, 1965 65VK427 Iron City March Verve unissued 65VK428 Angel - 65VK429 Fat Judy - 65VK430 Samba De Orfeu - 65VK431 Chim Chim Cheree - Grant Green and others same personnel NYC, September 1, 1965 65VK458 Things Ain't What They Used To Be Verve unissued 65VK459 Moon Over All - 65VK460 I Can't Stop Loving You - 65VK461 High Heel Sneakers - 65VK462 Blues Train - 65VK463 Sunday, Monday Or Always - 65VK464 Fever - 65VK465 Dream - 65VK466 Uptown - I have mentioned these sessions repeatedly hoping upon hope that they exist somewhere. It has been stated by MG that he is of the opinion that the tapes no longer exist. Just think what goodies lie on these if they are still around. Who is on organ "larry Young or Big John or both. Is it Wild Bill Davidson and the players from the Hodges sessions Green was on. Look at the tunes. The Iron City setlist plus Chim Chim Cheree etc. Grant had just recorded Got a Good Thing Going, so his lines were caught in the middle of referencing some of the linear aspects of Trane, but pared back, way back to an R&B intensified tone. On one of the Iron City tracks they vamp over a love supreme groove. Maybe Creed Taylor has some memory of this session and where the tapes may be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkboughtlunch Posted July 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Thanks - who is MG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Around here, MG is generally The Mighty Goldberg. Perhaps the reference was intended to be to MC, which would be Michael Cuscuna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Around here, MG is generally The Mighty Goldberg. Perhaps the reference was intended to be to MC, which would be Michael Cuscuna. No I definitely meant 'the magnificent one' who I hope was having a 'glass half empty' moment when he wrote that the Verve 65 tapes are lost. Hopefully, MG, it's not the case. Michael Cuscana or Bob Belden ever been down this avenue perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 I think Verve made an unsuccessful attempt to find them when they reissued the His Majesty King Funk LP, but couldn't find them or found they were unreleasable (or didn't find them ) und added the Donald Byrd LP Up for this reason. That's no news I'm tellin' but when there are no details in the official Verve disco, I wouldn't hold my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 26, 2007 Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 I think Verve made an unsuccessful attempt to find them when they reissued the His Majesty King Funk LP, but couldn't find them or found they were unreleasable (or didn't find them ) und added the Donald Byrd LP Up for this reason. That's no news I'm tellin' but when there are no details in the official Verve disco, I wouldn't hold my breath. OH that's really dissapointing. Does this mean the Verve catalogue was not looked after as well as, say the Blue Note archives. Or that the masters just may have become unlistenable over time due to negligence. The King Funk session was recently and beautifully remastered by Universal Japan, and presented in great mini lp format. The insert which is in Japanese (those ones that are authored Wings may have relevant info but not reading Japanese I can't tell). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkboughtlunch Posted July 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 What about Hodges' "Wings N Things" and "Joe's Blues"? Does Verve still have the tapes for those date with Green as a sideman? Is it just me or does Verve not respond to any inquiries and remain closed-lipped about everything. Is there anyone who knows someone at Verve that can sniff these dates out? The 2 lost sessions above most likely to feature Young or Patton, and could be monsters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 I don't remember when or ffrom whom I heard thses sessions were lost. (I also can't remember saying that they were lost - but I guess I must have, some time ) But Mike's right - Verve would have looked for the stuff when HMKF was reissued. The best bet to reissue the GG material with Johnny Hodges is for a Mosaic set of the Hodges/Wild Bill Davis albums. There were 7 Verve LPs (though Ray Jackson subbed for Davis on some tracks of "Blue Rabbit") and two on RCA Victor. And there is unissued material, as well. I'd think that would make a pretty good 5/6 CD Mosaic box. (Hodges also made a pretty good album for Verve with Billy Gardner on organ, Jimmy Ponder on guitar, Ron Carter, bass & Freddie Waits on drums - "Rippin' 'n runnin'". Wish I still had that one. But it could be added and the Mosaic could be a Hodges & organ box.) MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 I don't remember when or ffrom whom I heard thses sessions were lost. (I also can't remember saying that they were lost - but I guess I must have, some time ) But Mike's right - Verve would have looked for the stuff when HMKF was reissued. The best bet to reissue the GG material with Johnny Hodges is for a Mosaic set of the Hodges/Wild Bill Davis albums. There were 7 Verve LPs (though Ray Jackson subbed for Davis on some tracks of "Blue Rabbit") and two on RCA Victor. And there is unissued material, as well. I'd think that would make a pretty good 5/6 CD Mosaic box. (Hodges also made a pretty good album for Verve with Billy Gardner on organ, Jimmy Ponder on guitar, Ron Carter, bass & Freddie Waits on drums - "Rippin' 'n runnin'". Wish I still had that one. But it could be added and the Mosaic could be a Hodges & organ box.) MG I can't remember which actual topic MG but right about the time I first posted I mentioned this session. It might be in the thread about 'Live at the Club Mozambique' or in a GG re-issue thread, but I mentioned these sessions and you did say that they were lost. And I was devastated and still am. BUT perhaps they are in existance 'somewhere'. Whenever I am reminded of this discography listing I think of Elvin Jones saying in the Andrews Green biog that he thought Grant reached a plateau in 1965, and that everything he played at that time was sublime. I also think Peter Leitch's description of Grant's lines as 'existing on some celestial plane' from the liner notes of HMKF as also being a great description. So we are still left to wonder what/who these performances captured. If they ever surface perhaps they could be released as "Grant's Last Standards". Thanks for starting this topic MonkBoughtLunch. BTW, did anyone see the latest copy of Jazziz with all those great photos of the 60's guitar heroes taken at the TV station. An amazing photo of GG and Larry Young. Now what is the context for these photos? Are they 1960's television tapings? Lost to posterity too, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user0815 Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 (edited) maybe this is a very stupid question ... but i can't help it ... i just have to ask this how do we know for sure that the "lost" 1965 album is not identical with the well-known "iron city!" album ? i mean ... all the discographical informations that are usually given for the "iron city!" album do not look very reliable ... recording year (1967?) ... recording location (unknown recording location?) ... list of players (patton on organ?) ? oh ... btw ... hello to everyone ! ... i'm new here ... sorry for my english, not a native speaker Edited September 16, 2007 by user0815 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 maybe this is a very stupid question ... but i can't help it ... i just have to ask this how do we know for sure that the "lost" 1965 album is not identical with the well-known "iron city!" album ? i mean ... all the discographical informations that are usually given for the "iron city!" album do not look very reliable ... recording year (1967?) ... recording location (unknown recording location?) ... list of players (patton on organ?) ? oh ... btw ... hello to everyone ! ... i'm new here ... sorry for my english, not a native speaker Hi 8:15 ("The workers' train"?) Actually, that's not a bad thought. Though "Iron city" contains "Go down Moses", "Motherless child" and "Work song", which aren't listed in the Verve discography. But that information could be erroneous. Mistakes of that nature have been made often. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinging Swede Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Not a stupid question. Three of the tracks overlap, but the other three don't, as MG mentioned. It could simply be that when Verve didn't want to release it, some of the tunes were rerecorded at a later session (not uncommon when the first session remains unissued). But that begs the question: If not Verve, then what label was Iron City recorded for? It was released years later on Cobblestone, but Cobblestone did not exist in 1965. And yet it is a professional studio recording. So what label could it have been recorded for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 (edited) Iron City is a mystery session. We had a thread a while back on this. We know it is Larry Young and not John Patton on organ (the recent Savoy reissue still says Patton - don't these clowns read organissimo?). Bill Heid was adamant that it was Patton (hmmm...). He also knows that it was recorded in Pittsburgh, and the person who organized it was some rip-off dude who probably didn't pay much. This doesn't tell us a label, but it seems to exclude Verve from speculation. How many other sessions were recorded by famous players for small local labels which (unlike Iron City) never made it to the public or to the discographies? Butch Warren told me some guy in DC did a number of such sessions, including one with Butch, Buck Hill, Billy Hart and Reuben Brown (late 50s - early 60s). This is in no discography. Bertrand. Edited September 16, 2007 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user0815 Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 thanks for all the answers ! yes, i've noticed that only 3 of the tracks overlap ... but, given the fact that the discographical informations for the 1965 sessions are not complete anyway ("grant green and others"), how much trust can we put in the accuracy of the songlistings ? and yes, i did read the old discussions about "iron city!" ... of course, i've used the search function ! i still think that it's rather strange that no one is able to name the recording location for "iron city!" ... i mean this is a professional studio recording, not a home-made demo-recording or a private concert recording ... i mean, there are so many private live recordings from the 1950s and 1960s where people have been able to identify the waitress who is ringing the cash register in the background @ MG: no 8:15 is not the "workers train" ... over here 08/15 is a common standard phrase that means "run-of-the-mill" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 chewy did nt realize it wasn't orig. cobblestone?//// so cobble just boght the tapes or what have you. just finally picked this one up on cd for 5 big ones, some uk label reish- passed it up 6 mos. ago on lp/cobble reish///passed it up numerous tiumes b4 that, i dont know why- i think it was cause i was mad they slighted big john by using his name but then not using him on the date . yea thats it. you know what the one grant cd i still need is, sunday mornin' i cant beleive i dont have it, but i doubble checked and i dont! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 oh ... btw ... hello to everyone ! ... i'm new here ... sorry for my english, not a native speaker Heh. This strikes me as funny in light of Chewy's response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 I wonder whether Iron City was a rehearsal tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 The Verve sessions would have been recorded at Rudy's. Don't have any version of the "Iron City" date any more but a quick listen should tell you if it was recorded there. If it was, it is the Verve tapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 hmmm....never thought of that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 @ MG: no 8:15 is not the "workers train" ... over here 08/15 is a common standard phrase that means "run-of-the-mill" Learn summin' every day. Not so long ago that I learned what 101 means. Thanks. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 The Verve sessions would have been recorded at Rudy's. Don't have any version of the "Iron City" date any more but a quick listen should tell you if it was recorded there. If it was, it is the Verve tapes. I've had several versions of "Iron city" on LP and CD and I've never thought it was an RVG session (but what do I know? I can't tell the difference between most BN LPs and RVG or McMaster CDs back to back). But the Verve discog doesn't actually SAY it was RVG (though that's pretty certain, given how much Creed Taylor used RVG). MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 The Verve sessions would have been recorded at Rudy's. Don't have any version of the "Iron City" date any more but a quick listen should tell you if it was recorded there. If it was, it is the Verve tapes. I've had several versions of "Iron city" on LP and CD and I've never thought it was an RVG session (but what do I know? I can't tell the difference between most BN LPs and RVG or McMaster CDs back to back). But the Verve discog doesn't actually SAY it was RVG (though that's pretty certain, given how much Creed Taylor used RVG). MG Well I've never really felt it was an RVG session. Perhaps because the sound and levels b/t the organ and guitar are not as seamless as you'd expect (or my own ears suggest) they are on other sessions. That is not to say that it's not an RVG maybe mitagating circumstances made it an anamoly of the times. Who Knows. Surely anyone still alive that was involved in the Verve sessions would have memory of Grant doing Chim Chm Cheree. Is Ben Dixon still alive? Does he ever speak about this time in his career. Maybe the Iron City as we know it might have a context with the TV tapings documented by the photo in jaziz of Grant,Larry and Ben Dixon??? I still think the presence of Fat Judy suggests big John is involved. Why don't you have 'Sunday Morning' Chewy,, Don't you like Grant with piano? and they do a film theme,'let my people go" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 The Verve sessions would have been recorded at Rudy's. Don't have any version of the "Iron City" date any more but a quick listen should tell you if it was recorded there. If it was, it is the Verve tapes. I've had several versions of "Iron city" on LP and CD and I've never thought it was an RVG session (but what do I know? I can't tell the difference between most BN LPs and RVG or McMaster CDs back to back). But the Verve discog doesn't actually SAY it was RVG (though that's pretty certain, given how much Creed Taylor used RVG). MG Well I've never really felt it was an RVG session. Perhaps because the sound and levels b/t the organ and guitar are not as seamless as you'd expect (or my own ears suggest) they are on other sessions. That is not to say that it's not an RVG maybe mitagating circumstances made it an anamoly of the times. Who Knows. Surely anyone still alive that was involved in the Verve sessions would have memory of Grant doing Chim Chm Cheree. Is Ben Dixon still alive? Does he ever speak about this time in his career. Maybe the Iron City as we know it might have a context with the TV tapings documented by the photo in jaziz of Grant,Larry and Ben Dixon??? I still think the presence of Fat Judy suggests big John is involved. Why don't you have 'Sunday Morning' Chewy,, Don't you like Grant with piano? and they do a film theme,'let my people go" Ben Dixon is still around. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkboughtlunch Posted June 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 How about a Mosaic rescue? Has Cuscuna ever been approached about this Grant Green Verve material? The 2 Lps with Johnny Hodges are great. Surely the master tapes exist for "Joe's Blues" and "Wings n Things." Plus, if they can find the 2 missing Green led sessions, that would be icing on the cake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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