Playlist, WBLV / WBLU FM, 10-18-07, 10p.m.-3a.m.

[Lazaro Vega]

Jazz From Blue Lake

Thursday, October 18, 2007

Artist—Song Title – Album Title – Record Label

10 p.m. Eastern Time

Bennie Green, Blow Your Horn; Blow Your Horn: Decca

Wynton Marsalis/Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, All Aboard; Big Train: Columbia.

Wynton Marsalis, Supercapitalism; From the Plantation to the Penitentiary: Blue Note.

Wynton Marsalis, Free To Be; The Magic Hour: Blue Note.

Wynton Marsalis /Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, Soul For Sale: Blood on the Fields: Columbia.

Jazz Datebook www.bluelake.org/datebook.html

Benny Carter Centennial Project, I’m In the Mood For Swing; Centennial Project: Evening Star.

Leonard Feather’s All Jam Band, Twelve Bar Stampede/Featherbed Lament/Tempo di Jump (Men of Harlem); 52nd Street Swing: Decca.

Pee Wee Russell/Coleman Hawkins, If I Could Be With You; Jazz Reunion: Candid.

11 p.m.

Jelly Roll Morton/King Oliver, King Porter Stomp; The Pianist and Composer: The Smithsonian Collection.

Wynton Marsalis, King Porter Stomp; My Jelly Lord: Columbia.

Wynton Marsalis Septet, In the Court of King Oliver; Live at the Village Vanguard: Columbia.

Branford Marsalis, J Mood; Romare Bearden Revealed: Marsalis Music.

Jazz Datebook

Herbie Hancock, Edith and the Kingpin; River: The Joni Letters: Verve.

Jentsch Group Large, Outside Line; Brooklyn Suite: Fleur de Son Classics.

Marty Ehrlich/Myra Melford, Night; Spark!:Palmetto.

12 a.m.

Wynton Marsalis/Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, Night Train: Big Train: Columbia

Wynton Marsalis Septet, Black Codes from the Underground: Live at the Village Vanguard: Columbia.

Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, Pursuance; A Love Supreme: Palmetto.

John Coltrane, After the Crescent; Dear Old Stockholm: Impulse.

Rashied Ali, Multi-Culti; Judgment Day Vol. 2: Survival.

Don Cherry Quintet, Neopolitan Suite: Dios & Diablo; Live at Cafe Monmartre 1961: ESP.

1 a.m.

Jazz Datebook

Gerry Mulligan, Five Brothers; Jazz Profile: Blue Note.

Keith Jarrett Trio, Five Brothers; My Foolish Heart: ECM.

Bobo Moreno/Ernie Wilkins Almost Big Band, Angel Eyes; Out of This World: Sundance.

Lee Konitz, Angel Eyes; It’s You: Steeplechase.

Lenny Tristano, Turkish Mambo; Requiem: Atlantic.

Eric Rasmussen, Kary’s Trance ; School of Tristano: Steeplechase.

Wynton Marsalis, Donna Lee; Live at The House of Tribes: Blue Note.

Branford Marsalis, Laughin’ and Talkin’ With Higg; Romare Bearden Revealed: Marsalis Music.

Ornette Coleman, Jordan; Sound Grammar: Sound Grammar.

2 a.m.

Wynton Marsalis, Blue Interlude; Blue Interlude: Columbia.

Wynton Marsalis/Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra, Home: Take My Hand (from “Sweet Release”); Sweet Release & Ghost Story: Columbia.

Lazaro Vega

Blue Lake Public Radio

300 East Crystal Lake Road

Twin Lake MI 49457

WBLV FM 90.3 / WBLU FM 88.9

www.bluelake.org

Edited October 18, 2007 by Lazaro Vega

[Lazaro Vega]

Not unexpected, Clem; nor do I request Clemency. Thanks for bringing it up. It was his birthday. 46. And it's not just Winetone: Norah Jones, Diana Krall, and whatever other act you want to name that commands a quarter million dollars per performance, gets on the air. They just do. Your buddy Tony Bennet. I play these things. Some of this music is the flavor of the day and that's what radio does, among other things. We live in the era of Wynton's giant commercial thing and the era of the jazz, or, more acurately, 'jazzy' singer. He has an audience, especially with young musicians and listeners. It's a take it and run with it situation. If younger jazz nerds like Wynton and come here for that every once in a while then hopefully they'll have their horizons opened up. And, it really helps to hear his music alongside of, for instance in this playlist, King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton. His version with Eric Reed, I think it was, played alongside the original says more than I could ever about both of them.

Last Friday we did a night of Fred Hopkins and Air's view of the tradition is where it is at for me. But it isn't that way for everyone. I don't think you can program a radio station with broad audience appeal without playing the music that appeals to a broad audience. We're a 100,000 watter. And, for what it is worth, Wynton's music has proven very un-commercial during funders. Couldn't move the Marsalis Family Band CD at all a couple of years ago at all, not even one.

You're welcome to ask about the Michigan artists. This is the way I look at it, though: vertically. This is a single five hour show, standing up from 10 p.m. to 3 a.m. on a Thursday night. Next night, Anita O'Day. Verticle programming. The "horizontal" programming is where repetition comes in and it is in repetition of airplay that music becomes ingrained and I have 31 hours with which do to that each week. Each night there is a single artist on the jazz retrospective and that takes up about 20 to 30 minutes of each hour in a five hour program. Saturday morning and Sunday night (three hours each) are more mix shows with less of an historic perspective. And we do A LOT of programming in support of local arts organizations presenting music, as well as talk about local artist's live shows on The Jazz Datebook.

It matters more to me personally that Blue Lake was the first radio station in the country to program "Streaming" by Muhal and Company, and that we were the only radio station in the country to develop a three hour radio program around Muhal's music and conversation, and that Muhal said talking to Blue Lake was different than the majority of other interviews he does, than the fact that you get mad because I spent a night compromising my personal tastes to recognize the audience that Wynton has here, and the respect in which he's held by local jazz trumpters and jazz educators. Musicians, educators and fans have expectations. Ignore them at your own peril. Congo Square played here this summer, for instance, and filled DeVos Hall, again. To ignore that, completely, is just crazy in this day and age when WBEZ in Chicago and WDET in Detroit BOTH cut their jazz program schedules to nil or nearly nil thus making it much easier for smaller station managers to justify getting rid of jazz. Believe it.

Pee Wee and Hawk were on Saturday morning at noon, "What Am I Here For."

Rollins with on Friday night at 10:45, "Nia" is it? from his new one.

You're welcome to look at one segment such as this Wynton playlist and say what you will. But have a look at our Jazz Retrospective featured artists for the entire month of October, please, before jumping to conclusions. The focus was on bassists, including Detroit's Bob Hurst.

Two weeks ago we were all over Straight Ahead, the Detroit band that brought the world Regina Carter, as they appear on this side of the state.

Long form programming. Long, long form.....

[ghost of miles]

Lazaro: A gracious and intelligent reply.

I've listened to plenty of your broadcasts online in the past two years, and you do quite well by Michigan artists. You play more avant-garde than most jazz DJs I know of around the country.

Sorry, Clem, but to attack Lazaro for this one playlist is wrongheaded and borderline ridiculous. And he HAS played the people you name...I don't understand the need to go after him.

Edited October 21, 2007 by ghost of miles

[Alexander]

Lazaro: A gracious and intelligent reply.

I've listened to plenty of your broadcasts online in the past two years, and you do quite well by Michigan artists. You play more avant-garde than most jazz DJs I know of around the country.

Sorry, Clem, but to attack Lazaro for this one playlist is wrongheaded and borderline ridiculous. And he HAS played the people you name...I don't understand the need to go after him.

Because that's what Clem does. He goes after anyone who has the temerity to enjoy anything he doesn't. I also enjoyed Lazaro's reply. He doesn't have to make any excuses as far as I'm concerned.

For me, the world of music is so rich, so multifaceted...it seems so foolish to be closed off to any of it. You never know what the next great listening experience is going to be. Don't judge, just listen...

[Lazaro Vega]

Clem has every right to assert his taste.

But, damn, Muhal Richard Abrams is the most diplomatic musician I've ever met. He sets an example that anyone, in any line of work, could follow. He is a great leader. How else does one set up a group of musicians that will include both John Stubblefield and LeRoy Jenkins, or Amina Myers and Anthony Braxton? All under that one roof? By recognizing, as he says, that when you reach a certain level, a high level, in music, "It's all good." Now, we didn't talk about Wynton. We talked about playing on changes, songs, big band forms, swing time, and not playing that way, improvising everything. Muhal marvels at how high the bar has been set in music, and how to a great degree the styles of music have been mixed into one, great music. What a thing to hear. I want to amplify that through BROADCASTING in the Johnny Appleseed sense. But you have to be in a position to do it, and you have to be free to do it.

The way I look at it is there are many constituencies in the audience, and they're active: mainstream and traditional jazz societies, jazz in schools, concert presenters, and many musicians, and then the fans who are, generally, old. To appeal to one at the expense of the other is not going to work. There has to be some way to at least touch the bases. That way is to hit the highlights of jazz's evolution musically while simultaneously playing the dismal nadir of American culture that is Paul Anka's big band record. That summer, the summer of '06, will be, among many other things, remembered for the repeated airplay I gave his interpretation of "True." To some that might mean I loved it. But to me it is akin to Anthony Braxton's comment along the lines that "Sinatra is now in his senile phase and I want to see it." Radio reflects things like that.

Current marketing models, the most sophisticated ones, are not able to deal with "selling" the diversity of jazz, just as the corporate ideal does not market democracy at all, but sidesteps it. One "thing" to a million people, as opposed to 100 things to 100,000. This is one big reason why jazz is not getting across to a wider audience in our time. You could argue it is the music itself, but we're living in the twilight of the gods, and the non-demographic nature of the best jazz audience, young/old, multi-cultural, schooled/everyman etc., is not an audience that fits the current marketing models.

Radio does not in any way lead culture. If you think just because you're on the air you can play only what you like or judge artistically worthy and only give the audience that under the impression they'll change, you're wrong. They'll just turn on the game, or listen to a cd, or try to find something they DO want to hear, and they won't come back. But if you're able, somehow, to bring the core audience what they expect, gain their trust as a companion, gain their respect as an honest programmer, and intrigue them, then it's about a journey of discovery together. Despite what I might think of Wynton's music or more importantly the limitations of his own tastes I can't ignore the fact that nearly every trumpeter that's been in the station in the last 10 years at some point, whether it is Roy Campbell or the band director at Gross Point middle school, has said something about Wynton. Good, bad, critical, praiseworthy -- he's a topic of conversation as it relates to how they approach their instruments or how they approach jazz and jazz history.

Clem's right to point out Wynton sucks up just about all the air left in jazz, and he has every right to hate on that. Just realize not everyone sees it that way.

[Chuck Nessa]

Refuckinglax.

[Guest Bill Barton]

Refuckinglax.

Half a bottle of valium and a few shots of bourbon?

Edited October 22, 2007 by Bill Barton

[Lazaro Vega]

Right. It is open to criticism. Putting up the playlist, too, is a way to hopefully find a few more web stream listeners.

John Carter aired, again, last Friday during the Fred Hopkins program. Of course, Carter's music could have been on this program, too. We have, in the not too distant past, paired Marsalis and Carter's music in a back to back set, I think prompted by a comment from Larry Kart. At the time when Gramavision was issuing his Roots of Folklore series of albums, the label told us we were the first station in the country to play them and the first to devote an entire week's programming to the entire 5 lp production.

Yet where it mattered more was much later mentioning in passing the music of John Carter to a lead trumpeter in one of the military big bands, this fireplug of a dude who worshipped Maynard. "Oh yeah, I know that. That's great." I asked how he knew it and he said he heard it on Blue Lake. The kid grew up on Montague, Michigan, and listened to it on the radio.

The Konitz comment -- what the hell is that? That is akin to the media going after John Edwards for trying to help the poor. He can't help the poor, he's rich. What? The listeners shouldn't hear one of the greatest improvisers of our time so they can experience Ginny Dusseau singing "Whisper Not”? There's plenty of room in the pool, Clem, and "Kary's Trance" is a variation on "Angel Eyes." Musicians driving home from the gig, the most important group of listeners in our late night programming, love shit like that. Just love it.

I'm all for local, Clem. This year we presented, with a budget of nearly $20,000, a series of five jazz concerts on the radio featuring local, Michigan, musicians. Ed Love at WDET runs a larger ($100,000) series on WDET. Of course all summer long there were "Live From Blue Lake" radio concerts organized by area drummer Tim Froncek. And I wrote liner notes for the new album by Evidence as well as pianist Steve Talaga in collaboration with West Michigan poet Linda Nemec Foster (the later for free).

Saturday our afternoon classical music host Foley Schuler went to a reading by David Sedaris at the Frauenthal Center for the Performing Arts in Muskegon. Foley is a writer and very involved in writing at a local level here. He waited two hours in line for Sedaris to sign a book -- 11 p.m. or later and Foley was one of the last people in line. When he got there he mentioned to Sedaris that he worked for Blue Lake Public Radio (we're fundraising this week). Sedaris pulled out his check book and wrote the station a $500 contribution saying, "I listened to that station today. I like it!" Sedaris also marveled at the Cheeseburger Soup he had for lunch, so there you go: Muskegon.

The other side of localism. When introducing Muhal et al in Ann Arbor this Saturday my friend Michael G. Nastos, bless his heart, ran down the musician's relationships to the Ann Arbor scene since 1972 when Muhal appeared with the Art Ensemble at the Ann Arbor Blues and Jazz Festival. At intermission I mentioned to him that George Lewis is now at Columbia University, and that Roscoe is in a new position out west. The local angle was cool, especially because this was the first North American appearance by this group since the recording, but these appointments are also part of the larger activity of the musicians.

I do what Michael did, too. The point is that localism is sometimes a blinder to a broader narrative.

And when you say "Michigan musicians" what does that mean? If it means Geri Allen, Rodney Whitaker, James Carter, Regina Carter, Brad Goode, Bob Hurst, Xavier or Quincy Davis then please know they all at one time attended Blue Lake. I feel closeness to Chicago AS WELL AS Detroit as we're mid-way between the two jazz centers. I mean, the last time I talked to Tommy Flanagan I brought up Earl Van Riper. Tommy stopped me, turned my shoulder towards him and said, "People ask me about influences all the time" (he seemed annoyed by this) "but if you know Earl VanRiper's music than there's nothing else to say."

Blue Lake has included jazz in the summer school curriculum since 1966 when there was only one or two jazz programs in the secondary schools of West Michigan (though today there are enough high school and Jr. high school bands for a full, noon to 9 p.m., two day festival at Western Michigan University every year).

As it is, with 31 hours a week to fill, if something gets missed or not emphasized enough on this night, there's always tomorrow for dreams to come true.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Lazaro Vega

[Larry Kart]

Lazaro -- You probably mean this, from the "book":

"Marsalis remains a skilled instrumentalist, but he has never been a strikingly individual soloist. As for his orchestral works, their relative poverty of invention becomes clear when they are placed alongside the likes of George Russell’s Chromatic Universe and Living Time, Oliver Nelson’s Afro-American Sketches, Bill Holman’s Further Adventures, Muhal Richard Abrams’s The Hearinga Suite, Bob Brookmeyer’s Celebration, John Carter’s Roots and Folklore, and, of course, the more successful orchestral works of Ellington himself."

[Chuck Nessa]

That was some "heavy lifting" to squirm out Clem.

[Jim Alfredson]

2) in terms of context, with the Marsalis thing, you mixed & matched in a way rather less-than-illuminating. i daresay-- if i had more time right now-- I could do the same show with the same Marsalis music (Lazaro's choice) but surrounded by A LOT of other things that, to certain folk, would point out the overwhelming conceptual vacuity of his Columbia/Sony/Blue Note (EMI) sponsored "accomplishment."

What's stopping you? Let's see it.

[Lazaro Vega]

When he has time, that sounds like a good idea.

Yeah Larry: Hearinga is just incredible. Listened to the whole thing again last week and just LOVE it. Muhal's translation from detailed march rhythms directing all those conducted ensemble parts into the collective improvisation of the solos and ensemble solos gives the music such tremendous expressive breadth, not to mention the shift in instrumental arrangement -- ensemble with synthesizer and playful, Ornette inspired "nursey rhyme" theme, piano solo, drum solo..the last three movements, though, what was side 2 on the lp, with Oldfotalk, Find It Now (is that the title?) and Bermix -- this is where his ideas are most accessible to anyone trying to make big band music.

For what it is worth that new Rashied Ali album with "Multi-Culti" opens with a piece called "Skain's Refrain." Greg Murphy wrote it after hearing something Wynton played in Chicago. (Wanted to drop in on Don Cherry collective improv, though).

Still completely disagree with the perspective on Konitz: what alto saxophone players living today other than Ornette improvise on his level? Doug Horn here in Michigan is more of a Phil Woods guy, and local musician Bob Nixon comes more out of Paul Desmond. When I had the chance, when an agent was looking to fill a couple of dates for Lee as he toured America, I was able to get him here doing what he often does, playing with a "local" rhythm section. Played Grand Rapids (Sunday afternoon of Mother's Day at The Urban Institute for Contemporary Arts) and Ann Arbor (the Saturday night before Mother's Day at Kerrytown Concert House) with drummer Pete Siers and bassist Jeff Halsey. That was an exciting encounter. They all seemed excited by the Kerrytown hit, especially. We had 100, 150 people at the matinee in Grand Rapids. It was excellent to hear Lee play a solo alto version of "Lover, Come Back To Me" which he prefaced by saying, "This is for the Mothers...of course that's all of you."

You want to talk about local, Maria Muldaur's "Naghty, Bawdy and Blue" with James Dapogny's Chicago Jazz Band on Stony Plain Records (recorded in Ann Arbor). He came to Michigan State with Sippi Wallace and did these arrangements in the late 1970's. She had on a foxhead stole and a mouth full of gold singing "Empty Bed Blues" and "Up the Country Blues" and it was as close to a 1920's era theater show I'd ever encountered, and a pure taste of classic blues. She sang her old heart out in front of the professors in tuxes with their bass sax on wheels. The place went ape shit. She did that show at The Ark and Michigan Theaters in Ann Arbor (perhaps?). This new album is some of that music, those arrangements with Maria singing. "New Orleans Hop Scop Blues." Pete Siers, who went to Aquinas College in Grand Rapids and studied with Randy Marsh's teacher, too, one Rupert Kettle, is on Maria's album. Kim Cusack from Chicago and Jon-Erik Kelso on trumpet are more well known names in the band.

Edited October 23, 2007 by Lazaro Vega

[JSngry]

Larry Smith still alive?

[Lazaro Vega]

Sure, face.

The new big band Lee would be nice to have, too. Omni Tone.

Paid to post? I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of a blue note. Need to pay Jim, jim. Paid to play, yes. Started working 6 days a week at Blue Lake in 1983 for 10,000 a year plus medical benefits and generous vacation time (a month a year at this point). They've sent me to Europe twice, too. Recently built me a studio in the basement of the radio station and moved the jazz cd library down here (the lps come down after the funder). It's the lower level. I'm taken care of though often encouraged to play boring music. This is the artist driven or radio professional driven conflict of programming: Is the radio furniture that fits the decor of your lifestyle or an idea transmitter? Fortunatly musicians run Blue Lake so you know, ultimately, that not selling out is an option, though staying alive keeps getting in the way. By the way if I don't like the pay level I'm welcome to %25 comissions on selling airtime. Selling is hard but managed to contribute $10,000 to the $200,000 the station sold in air time last year. This year is not going to reach any where near that for me, though the station is doing o.k. $805,000 annual budget.

WEMU in Ypsi just put a news director in the program director's position and his advice to the staff was to no longer play Duke Ellington, because it only appeals to old people, nor John Coltrane, because it is too abrasive. Panic button.

[Lazaro Vega]

Sorry, Jim, I was responding to Clematoe.

[Jim Alfredson]

WEMU in Ypsi just put a news director in the program director's position and his advice to the staff was to no longer play Duke Ellington, because it only appeals to old people, nor John Coltrane, because it is too abrasive. Panic button.

Fuck me.

[JSngry]

Larry Smith still alive?

I'm still wondering...

[jazzypaul]

Larry Smith still alive?

I'm still wondering...

as in former WBEZ host? I believe so.

[AllenLowe]

I juts want to put in a word for Lee Harvey Oswald, as Clem mentioned that he has an October birthday - there is a record out there of his debate on a radio station in New Orleans, in 1963, so he should get some air play - particulary interesting is that on the record of the broadcast he says that he was in the Soviet Union "with the protection of the United States government."

[JSngry]

Larry Smith still alive?

I'm still wondering...

as in former WBEZ host? I believe so.

No(?)

As in Detroit altoist who makes a most intriguing cameo on James Carter's ...Baker's Keyboard Lounge side.

[Lazaro Vega]

Jim, I'm sorry I don't know but can find out with some digging.

Clem, no. Those are good records you recommend. I say no because hearing the original is more valuable to a general audience than comparing interpreters. The King Oliver/Jelly Roll version from 1923 is what Wynton was basing his duet from. I would build a completely different program around the recordings you mentioned. But you should follow your line of thoughts and elaborate. It will be edifying.

I'm reluctant to go on the air to prove a negative. It is what it is; let listeners decide for themselves. Buzzkill doesn't fly in a society tenuously remembering culture. It is just too easy to push people back into entertainment programming by being negative. Writing, sure. But you don't want to have a jazz program giving listeners the same emotional terrain created by listening to Rush Highball -- this haz to be different. For what it is worth the Neil Tesser program, which I really enjoyed, did not fly here: the listeners complained about that face off, talk driven format. Also, think about 10 p.m. to 3 a.m. -- what do you think our listeners are doing then? That's right. "Bach Up To Me."

The programming at the ideal is music led. Simply put Wynton is a musician, I'm not. He goes. Now, looking back at this, "Laughing and Talking With Higg" is an Ornette Quartet instrumentation dedicated to Billy Higgins -- saxophone, trumpet, bass and drums -- and putting that next to where Ornette is now is interesting. Because Ornette's taken his own music so much farther into a personal collective improv. Wasn't this made shortly before Wynton caused himself some nerve damage to his lip for playing so crazy high? There's extended examples of improvised spontaneous counterpoint (or it sounds that way, anyhow) on this CD. They get Ornette, or the part of him they're comfortable with. Their fans want to hear that...And the stuff that isn't influenced by the Miles Davis, and the trad stuff, and some extended writing, and something that could possibly someday be played by others (Free to Be). I don't know, juxtaposing a song critical of hyper consumerism with a song sung from the point of view of a slave dealer (Jon Hendricks in the role interpolating Summertime -- what do you make of THAT?) was, ah, not exactly Fred Thompson's version of neo-con. Yes Carter, Roach and Abby hit me harder. But it wasn't their birthday.

As to being above reproach, no: it's called "taking requests."

So this Sunday night you better listen in to how Lee Kontiz's "Lover Man" was transcribed by Clare Fischer, who went to South High School in Grand Rapids. Following that the first hour of the program is dedicated to West Michigan jazz musicians. 7 to 8 p.m. this Sunday night. You'll hear a spiritual adjoined to Ra's "Lullaby for Realville" by

The Wonderland Ensemble because this is, after all, where today during our walk as the toddler laughed and petted at my 100 lb black lab's soft girl dog ears his mommy bent over the stroller and said, "See, Jesus made the doggie say 'woof woof.'"

"Michigan Water Tastes Like Sherry Wine"

Edited October 24, 2007 by Lazaro Vega

[Lazaro Vega]

John Sinclair played the Howmet Playhouse in Whitehall two weeks ago (right down the street from Chuck's house) in what was probably the third concert in as many years that the station was used -- almost exclusively as regards electronic media --to help promote. Came all the way from France for that one.

We're local as hell. There's just no getting around that.

During the Wynton program we were running our "Jazz Datebook," which is also on-line, mentioning in calendar form the jazz coming up in this area, from Kalamazoo to Grand Rapids to Pentwater and Baldwin.

However, there could always be more as intellectual drift does occur. So, as mentioned, this Sunday night you'll hear from our local working musicians. 7 p.m. Tune in, see what you think.

[Chuck Nessa]

Time for Clem to post details of his work of the last 20 years and income, perks, motives, etc.

Lazaro is a friend and the most conscientious radio person I know. This thread is a shitload of crap.

Why should a real person, doing real things, defend himself from attacks initiated by an imaginary figure?

Play your games elsewhere.

[Guest Bill Barton]

Well said, Chuck.

This thread has "morphed" in a rather disturbing manner.

[clifford_thornton]

For sure.

Laz has always seemed uber-hip and knowledgeable to me, and I'm sure he hears a lot of things most people on this board (or involved in this music, including myself) do not.