sessions some OTHERS think are trainwrecks, but YOU adore!

[Rooster_Ties]

That last disc of the Andrew Hill BN select is a monster. I know a number of people think it's a mess, and in some ways it is. But I can't get enough of it, especially that 10/31/67 session with Woody and Sam. I can't say it better than this: it is a desert island disc for me (disc #3 specifically).

(D) Woody Shaw, trumpet; Robin Kenyatta, alto sax; Sam Rivers, soprano sax, tenor sax; Howard Johnson, baritone sax, tuba; Andrew Hill, piano; Herbie Lewis, bass; Teddy Robinson, drums.

Recorded on October 31,1967

(E) Robin Kenyatta, alto sax; Sam Rivers, flute, soprano sax, tenor sax; Andrew Hill, piano, organ; Cecil McBee, bass; Teddy Robinson, drums; Nadi Qamar (Spaulding Givens), thumb piano, African drum, bells.

Recorded on February 10,1967

Edited March 18, 2010 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

And I also have to confess that "the" Trainwreck™ is astounding ( ).

5 tunes plus 4 alternates (9 full-length takes in all, close to 70 minutes total if I remember), with some of THE most inventive 'out-leaning' Herbie I've ever heard on record. And the alternates are what make it work -- you really get to hear Tyrone's concepts, and can know (proof-positive) what he was trying for.

Frankly, I think some of it even outshines "Natural Essence" (for instance, I think the slow (free) ballad on the unreleased session is much better than the slow (free) ballad which closes "Natural Essence"). Some of the tunes clearly are transitional between "Natural Essence" and "Roots", and presage where Tyrone was going on "Roots". I've had it for one full year (almost to the day), and probably listened to it easily close to 100 times. Warts and all, it's an astonishingly interesting date.

I would rank all three of these sessions (both the Hills, and the Tyrone) right up there with "All Seeing Eye" and "Some Other Stuff", and maybe even "Fuchsia Swing Song".

What crazy, insane dates do YOU love, that others think are a mess?? I’m not asking about Ornette's Free Jazz, or Cecil Taylor, where there is a strong division about the merits of the music (based on how open or conservative one's tastes are). But, rather, dates that really are questionable, even among those with big enough ears to appreciate lots of things (i.e. dates with messy heads, but "go for broke" soloing, etc...).

Edited March 18, 2010 by Rooster_Ties

[Indestructible!]

And I also have to confess that "the" Trainwreck™ is astounding ( ).

5 tunes plus 4 alternates (9 full-length takes in all, close to 70 minutes total if I remember), with some of THE most inventive 'out-leaning' Herbie I've ever heard on record. And the alternates are what make it work -- you really get to hear Tyrone's concepts, and can know (proof-positive) what he was trying for.

Wait, you've heard the Trainwreck session? How'd you do that???

[Rooster_Ties]

Leaks happen. I don't think it circulates.

Kinda crazy that I've probably listened to this date 5 or 10 times more than any other person ever (living or otherwise).

(And maybe fitting, given how much I've wanted to hear it all these years, as some of you well know.)

[clifford_thornton]

I like a fair amount of disastrous shit.

[danasgoodstuff]

Let me think - I like Ayler's "Drudgery" but not the whole session, pretyy much all of his spirituals session (but it ought to b e issued with the originals done at the same session). I like Hank M's Reach Out, the whole thing but esp'ly the 'covers'. I like Stan T's "Always something There" and "Look of Love". But I'm not sure any of those are exactly train wrecks. Lots of things that weren't issued at the time, for techical or sonceptual reasons. Must be some pop/rock/soul too, but I can't think of any right now..

[AndrewHill]

I like a fair amount of disastrous shit.

lol. me too. I think I would really like to hear that McLean BN session from 1968 with Norman Connors.

[Rooster_Ties]

I would really like to hear that McLean BN session from 1968 with Norman Connors.

AMEN to that. Maybe someday. (No, I've not heard this one.)

Date: July 5, 1968

Location: Plaza Sound Studios, New York City

Label: Blue Note

Jackie McLean (ldr), Jackie McLean (as), Tyrone Washington (ts), Woody Shaw (t), Bobby Hutcherson (vib), Scotty Holt (b), Norman Connors (d)

a. 3054 In Case You Haven't Heard (Woody Shaw)

b. 3055 Hymn To Rap (Jackie McLean)

c. 3056 One For Jeru (Norman Connors)

d. 3057 Kupenda

e. 3058 Abrasion (Jackie McLean)

All performances were rejected.

[king ubu]

Not going ape-shit about it but I like Lee Morgan's "The Rajah" quite some!

[Rooster_Ties]

"Passing Ships" kinda fits in this category (slightly). It's not a big, huge mess - but it's under-rehearsed a fair bit here and there (and there, and there...).

Both it, and disc #3 of the Hill BN Select are probably two of my top-5 alltime favorite Hill discs (and yet they're easily among Hill's least "perfect" recordings, to put it mildly). Has anybody else connected deeply with that last disc of the Select? Sangry? Anybody??

Another date that's a bit of a mess (but still very valuable), is "Of Love and Peace" (and maybe also "Contrasts" to some lesser extent). I always get those two dates confused, but I'm pretty sure it's "Of Love and Peace" that sounds less rehearsed Tyrone's unreleased leader-date (IMHO).

Edited March 19, 2010 by Rooster_Ties

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I don't think I'd know a trainwreck if it bit me on the ankle.

MG

[JSngry]

Both it, and disc #3 of the Hill BN Select are probably two of my top-5 alltime favorite Hill discs (and yet they're easily among Hill's least "perfect" recordings, to put it mildly). Has anybody else connected deeply with that last disc of the Select? Sangry? Anybody??

I just hear it as psychedelic jazz and go with it like that. Works just fine.

[.:.impossible]

Rooster. How long have you been sitting on the trainwreck?! It was your enthusiasm for Natural Essence that made me track down a Japanese import!

!!!

[bertrand]

Rooster's PM box is now doubt at its limit right now

Bertrand.

[AndrewHill]

Another date that's a bit of a mess (but still very valuable), is "Of Love and Peace" (and maybe also "Contrasts" to some lesser extent). I always get those two dates confused, but I'm pretty sure it's "Of Love and Peace" that sounds less rehearsed Tyrone's unreleased leader-date (IMHO).

I think its Of Love and Peace you're thinking of because I think some (don't know who right off hand, but I think a thread exists somewhere talking about it) complained about Eddie Gale's trumpet playing to the degree that they think it ruins the session. Personally I'm not bothered by Gales's playing, in fact I like this session quite a bit along with Mothership (perhaps another candidate for trainwreck status).

[danasgoodstuff]

Another date that's a bit of a mess (but still very valuable), is "Of Love and Peace" (and maybe also "Contrasts" to some lesser extent). I always get those two dates confused, but I'm pretty sure it's "Of Love and Peace" that sounds less rehearsed Tyrone's unreleased leader-date (IMHO).

I think its Of Love and Peace you're thinking of because I think some (don't know who right off hand, but I think a thread exists somewhere talking about it) complained about Eddie Gale's trumpet playing to the degree that they think it ruins the session. Personally I'm not bothered by Gales's playing, in fact I like this session quite a bit along with Mothership (perhaps another candidate for trainwreck status).

Huh? Mothership doesn't strike me as a 'tranwreck' at all: do people really think so and why?

[AndrewHill]

The first track is a bit of a mess, although I dig it.

[Rooster_Ties]

Gosh, no, I'd never consider "Mothership" a trainwreck, not even close. It's top-drawer in my book.

I'm sure it was "Of Love and Peace" I was thinking of, though not specifically because of Eddie Gale. No one player bothers me more than any other on that session - it just needed one more rehearsal is all. I still like the energy of it, though. (And it's no less a mess than disc #3 of the Hill BN Select.)

To answer the other question, I've had the lost Tyrone date for about a year now.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Rooster_Ties

[AndrewHill]

May we have a list then of what would universally be called a trainwreck and vote on those? I mean, the title of this thread is what we "think" are trainwrecks, right?

[.:.impossible]

We want details.

[kh1958]

I rather like the Trio of Doom.

[Dan Gould]

Leaks happen. I don't think it circulates.

I used to be in the loop for some of those but I kinda suspected that the well was dry. Not that I'm jealous - I'm sure my reaction would be far more harsh than "trainwreck of avant garde nothingness". But now I'd wonder if there's any chance at all to hear the Gene Harris - Grant Green session some day.

Kinda crazy that I've probably listened to this date 5 or 10 times more than any other person ever (living or otherwise).

Not crazy at all.

[BruceH]

I don't care what anyone says, I still like Kind of Blue.