Horace Silver Tentet- rejected '63 "serenade" sessions

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

O M G do u guys know about these? did alfred lion force horace to do a re-record a month later in quintet form, or i wonder whats going on w/ this date...W-O-W!

Horace Silver Tentet

Kenny Dorham, Blue Mitchell (tp) Grachan Moncur III (tb) Julius Watkins (frh) Junior Cook, Jimmy Heath (ts) Charles Davis (bars) Horace Silver (p) Gene Taylor (b) Roy Brooks (d) Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, April 11, 1963

Silver's Serenade Blue Note rejected Sweet Sweetie Dee - Nineteen Bars - Next Time I Fall In Love -

Horace Silver Tentet

Kenny Dorham, Blue Mitchell (tp) Grachan Moncur III (tb) Julius Watkins (frh) Junior Cook, Jimmy Heath (ts) Charles Davis (bars) Horace Silver (p) Gene Taylor (b) Roy Brooks (d): same personnel Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, April 12, 1963

The Dragon Lady Blue Note rejected Let's Go To The Nitty Gritty - Nineteen Bars

Edited May 30, 2010 by chewy

[mikeweil]

IIRC Silver himself was not satisfied with the results - the arrangements in particular. Cuscuna listened to them and considered a release but Silver opted against it and was handed the tapes. So there is almost no hope that we will ever hear them if he destroyed them. 

If they are still there after he passes, who knows?

I have to admit I would have loved to hear his tunes with a larger horn section ...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

IIRC Silver himself was not satisfied with the results - the arrangements in particular. Cuscuna listened to them and considered a release but Silver opted against it and was handed the tapes. So there is almost no hope that we will ever hear them if he destroyed them. 

If they are still there after he passes, who knows?

I have to admit I would have loved to hear his tunes with a larger horn section ...

Isn't that what he was doing in the seventies? "Silver 'n wood" etc...

Haven't heard any of that stuff.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

I asked Horace about this material 20+ years ago and he said it didn't work and he didn't want the public to hear it.

I would suggest the sounds of a '63 date would be very different from the late BN material.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Chuck Nessa

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

how could cuscuna just 'hand' horace the tapes?? arent they owned by EMI or whatnot- to be fair i HAVE heard that before, but i thought it was in the context of a horace live session...anyhoo how could michael do that

Edited May 30, 2010 by chewy

[Chuck Nessa]

If he did this,he gave the artist's wishes priority. Not a bad thing.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

how could cuscuna just 'hand' horace the tapes?? arent they owned by EMI or whatnot- to be fair i HAVE heard that before, but i thought it was in the context of a horace live session...anyhoo how could michael do that

Because the production costs of records are paid for out of the artist's royalties - ie they don't get any until those costs are paid (if ever). But Horace actually was getting royalties. So a copyright that won't be issued, the production costs of which have been paid for by Silver, is of no value to EMI.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

That's only true if the costs were cross collateralized. Not sure that would have been the case.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Wouldn't a guy as savvy as Horace have got this? He was one of the first modern jazz musicians to get his own publishing company.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

Then Horace would not have had the production costs paid.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Then Horace would not have had the production costs paid.

Oh, I think I'm missing something here, then...

MG

[John L]

Discographies list a ton of unissued Horace Silver on Blue Note, including a large amount of live music, most notably from the 1961 Village Gate gig that produced "Doin' the Thing" and extensive recordings from a 1964 gig at Pep's with the Joe Henderson / Carmell Jones band.

Are those tapes also being withheld by Silver?

[Chuck Nessa]

Yes.

[Dan Gould]

Hard to believe that the Doin the Thing engagement only produced the released tracks. That's one of my favorite live recordings.

[Hardbopjazz]

Well there is probably no way of asking Horace what he disliked. Hopefully his sone Gregory will think differently, that is if these tapes still exist. In Horace Silver's autobiography he claimed to have a closet full unrelease music from throughout his career.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Hardbopjazz

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

autobiography? is that available or from a long time ago? what does he say about hank?

[brownie]

I respect the right of Horace Silver to withhold that 63 session but sure wish he would change his mind!

[Dan Gould]

autobiography? is that available or from a long time ago? what does he say about hank?

[Stereojack]

Years ago, not long after the publication of the Blue Note discography, I asked Cuscuna about the Horace big band session. His response was that the performances were very ragged, sloppily played, and that Horace had chosen musicians who were great soloists, but not necessarily very good readers or ensemble players. He cited Kenny Dorham in particular, who could be heard on the tapes discouraging the band from the repeated rundowns that might have insured better ensemble work. After this disastrous session, Horace rerecorded the tunes with his quintet, and the result was the classic "Silver's Serenade".

[mikeweil]

I respect the right of Horace Silver to withhold that 63 session but sure wish he would change his mind!

My thoughts exactly! 

I have the late 1970's big band stuff, but an expanded quintet would have sounded differently, I'm sure.

[brownie]

Years ago, not long after the publication of the Blue Note discography, I asked Cuscuna about the Horace big band session. His response was that the performances were very ragged, sloppily played, and that Horace had chosen musicians who were great soloists, but not necessarily very good readers or ensemble players. He cited Kenny Dorham in particular, who could be heard on the tapes discouraging the band from the repeated rundowns that might have insured better ensemble work.

All the more reasons for getting to listen to those tapes.

Just for the sake of curiosity (I have yet to hear Dorham playing soppily)...

We all know that great artists have their bad days. They don't lose our respect for that!

[jazzbo]

Jack, when I interviewed Michael Cuscuna a decade ago he told me the same story, including specific mentions of Kenny Dorham. I'm not sure if he outright told me or just inferred that the tapes are no longer.

[Stereojack]

Years ago, not long after the publication of the Blue Note discography, I asked Cuscuna about the Horace big band session. His response was that the performances were very ragged, sloppily played, and that Horace had chosen musicians who were great soloists, but not necessarily very good readers or ensemble players. He cited Kenny Dorham in particular, who could be heard on the tapes discouraging the band from the repeated rundowns that might have insured better ensemble work.

All the more reasons for getting to listen to those tapes.

Just for the sake of curiosity (I have yet to hear Dorham playing soppily)...

We all know that great artists have their bad days. They don't lose our respect for that!

It was not my intention to dis KD, who happens to be one of my favorite musicians. However, playing in a big band ensemble with the kind of precision required is not everyone's forte. Anybody who's ever played in a brass or reed section knows that there is no short cut to excellence. The sloppiness of the ensembles may not have been KD's fault, anyway, but the joint result of lack of sufficient rehearsal.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

ooo im so happy everyoone likes my thread!!!!!

[Hoppy T. Frog]

ooo im so happy everyoone likes my thread!!!!!

Man, you get the most active threads going. I don't know how you do it.