World Cup 2010

[papsrus]

It's not an anti-American thing. It's an officiating thing.

I'm sure every country has a legitimate beef.

(see "hand of God" goal -- anti-English?)

[Tim McG]

Unfortunately, ref screwups are legion in WC. For instance, the ref screwed up in the Brasil match today by not calling a hand ball on Brasil. I guess he hates the Ivory Coast. But wait, he kicked out a Brasilian player. So I guess he's biased against both of them.

If you read my prior post, you'd see FIFA rated his performance as poor.

I recommend that you watch a few matches and not just WC before making inane pronouncements.

I have.

The anti-American bias is abundantly clear.

It's not an anti-American thing. It's an officiating thing.

I'm sure every country has a legitimate beef.

(see "hand of God" goal -- anti-English?)

I disagree.

The officials are soundly anti-American.

The evidence is very clear since the Cold War days. Pick a sport, pick a venue, pick an IOC exclusion of American sports, pick a Tour de Farce attack on Lance Armstrong. It's all there and the WC replay is the most blatant example of anti-American bias I have ever seen. Bottom line: The International sports community has tried to cheat Americans out of legit wins since Josef Stalin. This cheating stuff is total bullshit and you know it. Prove me wrong.

Go Europe

Edited June 21, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[papsrus]

The evidence is very clear since the Cold War days. Pick a sport, pick a venue, pick an IOC exclusion of American sports, pick a Tour de Farce attack on Lance Armstrong. It's all there and the WC replay is the most blatant example of anti-American bias I have ever seen. Bottom line: The International sports community has tried to cheat Americans out of legit wins since Josef Stalin. This cheating stuff is total bullshit and you know it. Prove me wrong.

Go Europe

Cycling officials have gone after more than just Lance Armstrong. In fact, I don't think cycling officials have really gone after Armstrong at all, have they? It's been the press, hasn't it? He's never been accused by any cycling officials of anything, has he?

The U.S. no-goal has not been the only bad call in this World Cup, nor certainly the history of the World Cup.

You'll have to be more specific about the "going back to Josef Stalin" thing, but that seems to fall outside the scope of the World Cup.

[Brad]

Here are some of refereeing decisions indicative of anti-americanism. Oh, darn, I forgot the USA wasn't involved in these. Oh, well, on with the show:

In a group stage match between Croatia and Australia in 2006, referee Graham Poll failed to properly record a yellow card for Croatia's Josip Simunic. So when Simunic later received a second yellow card, Poll did not send him off, since he had inadvertently given Simunic's first yellow to an Australian player. It took a third yellow card later in the match (for dissent) for Poll to send off Simunic. The match ended 2-2. As a result of the blunder, Poll, a highly respected referee, never again officiated a World Cup match.

In the Round of 16 in 2002, the South Koreans scored an astounding upset against Italy ... thanks to the help of Ecuadorian referee Byron Moreno. Moreno controversially sent off Italian striker Francesco Totti after giving him a second yellow card for diving (replays later showed there was contact on the foul). Then, Moreno disallowed an Italian goal in extra time with a bogus offside whistle. The South Koreans would go on to win 2-1 in the extra period, and Moreno would later encounter numerous other charges of match-fixing.

Not a refereeing decision but those new fans who may wonder why the final group stage matches are played at the same time, here's the answer:

In 1982 a draw or an Austrian win would eliminate West Germany. A German win by three or more goals would eliminate Austria. But a German victory by one or two goals would eliminate Algeria. After the West Germans scored 10 minutes into the match, the two sides basically kicked the ball around, doing very little, almost intentionally trying not to score. When the final 1-0 score line eliminated Algeria, the African side lodged a complaint with FIFA. The result was allowed to stand, but it was clear to everyone what had happened.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Brad

[brownie]

My WC TV watch yesterday concentrated on the never-ending saga of the French team disaster. French players and officials sank to a new low...

The Irish also watched all this and enjoyed it like a well-deserved vengeance:

Irish reactions

[Big Wheel]

I call BS on this example; it's completely unrepresentative of actual officiating in the US. The entire reason the perfect game apology was notable was because US refs and umps NEVER admit fault; this one only happened because the decision denied everyone the opportunity to see a once-a-decade achievement. (Though perfect games are getting more frequent these days...wonder why that is?) Occasionally you'll see the NFL do a review well after the game and say "oh, such-and-such call was incorrect," but that's about all the "resolution" provided.

But we have replay review in the four major sports in the U.S. now. (Limited in the NBA, but the referees will at certain times consult the video monitors to see if a shot beat the game clock, etc.) The whole point of video review is to raise the level of fairness in officiating. To get the call right, despite the human error factor that is inevitable in officiating.

And I disagree on the NFL. Officials are obligated to review a range of calls at the request of either coach during games. It's limited, but it's there.

By the way FIFA has rated the US mail ref "poor" for what it's worth; hopefully he won't work another match in this tournament.

Exactly. What American sport offers this level of transparency and accountability? Even if we only know about this rating because of an unauthorized leak from FIFA, that's still more than you get from the NFL/MLB/NBA. The only American official I can think of who faced public discipline was Tim Donaghy, and he was guilty of federal crimes.

I disagree here as well.

All four major U.S. sports review and grade their officiating. Only the top-graded officials make it to the playoffs. This is true in football, baseball, basketball and hockey. And I'm not sure what the union rules are for each sport, but I know baseball umpires whose umpiring is judged inadequate can be, and have been, let go. I assume there are similar provisions in the labor agreements for the other major sports.

Game officials make mistakes. That's a given. But I think the effort to correct bad calls during games (through the use of replay review) coupled with the performance review process for game officials through the course of a season in the four major U.S. sports, is genuine.

That the referee in the U.S. game was judged to be 'poor' is pretty much the minimum action they could have taken there, and hardly qualifies as "transparency."

There's still no explanation of why the call was made, and likely never will be, as far as I can tell. Why? Because of the rules that say the referee doesn't have to explain himself. Not transparent at all, in my view.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I think officiating in particular is worth a critical look -- in all sports. How could it be improved, made more fair? Clearly there's room for improvement in soccer.

.

-MLB instant replay is still extremely limited. The only calls that are reviewed are home run calls - which are the ones that are the least subjective anyway. Sure, a blown call on a ball that didn't clear the fence could have a big effect on a game's outcome, but in terms of overall ability to influence the way the game is played, I think an umpire calling an inconsistent strike zone is a much bigger worry. No instant replay there.

-In fact, that's the general tendency in most sports. NFL challenges are almost entirely about objective factors like where the ball was spotted or whether a player had possession of the football on a play. Subjective things like penalty calls are usually not subject to instant replay. You'll never hear an NFL ref say "on further review, the head linesman totally missed the left guard tripping the defensive tackle on his way to the quarterback. 15 yards from the spot of the foul." So it's not like a blown foul call in a FIFA match is really any less accountable than a blown penalty call in an NFL game.

-My point is that transparency in the evaluation process matters, and as little of that as FIFA gives us, it's still way more than any American sport provides. American leagues assure us that they police their officials and scrutinize their every call, but we have absolutely zero insight into how this is done or the actions taken as a result. Can you name a single MLB umpire who was fired or sent to single A ball because of shitty calls? I can't. Maybe there were some, but MLB's stance is that the public has no right to know the details of any individual case.

Dick Bavetta has long been dogged by allegations of systematic bad calls. The FBI seemed more interested in his calls than whoever self-polices calls for the NBA. Even after information surfaced in federal court possibly implicating him in the Donaghy scandal, the NBA STILL assigned Bavetta to Finals games and weirdly, seems to be rather grudging about finally pushing him out of refereeing playoff games. You'd think if their independent audits of officiating didn't turn up anything bad on Bavetta, they'd be standing behind him all the way. And if they DID turn something up, you'd think they'd firmly turn against Bavetta. Instead we're getting this bizarre, wishy-washy response.

FIFA's officiating may not be quite as precise on individual calls, but the process for grading officials appears to be far speedier and more transparent than what we have. This makes for a better system on the whole and ensures fairness way better than the slow-response black box that we've got. The point is that benign imprecision (genuine officiating errors like failing to see a handball or spotting the football wrong) is unfortunate, but it's also random - in a system with only benign imprecision you're going to see the bad calls divided about 50/50 no matter how many of them there are in a game, so while you want to take steps to minimize them, in the long run they cancel each other out. What you really need to focus on to ensure fairness is stamping out malign imprecision - bad calls that are the result of conscious or unconscious bias on the part of officials. Our system's incentives do not appear to be aligned to eliminate this as well as FIFA's does.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Big Wheel

[Stefan Wood]

Portugal slaughtered North Korea. I think the entire group may have to defect to South Korea to save their skins!

[papsrus]

-MLB instant replay is still extremely limited. The only calls that are reviewed are home run calls - which are the ones that are the least subjective anyway. Sure, a blown call on a ball that didn't clear the fence could have a big effect on a game's outcome, but in terms of overall ability to influence the way the game is played, I think an umpire calling an inconsistent strike zone is a much bigger worry. No instant replay there.

-In fact, that's the general tendency in most sports. NFL challenges are almost entirely about objective factors like where the ball was spotted or whether a player had possession of the football on a play. Subjective things like penalty calls are usually not subject to instant replay. You'll never hear an NFL ref say "on further review, the head linesman totally missed the left guard tripping the defensive tackle on his way to the quarterback. 15 yards from the spot of the foul." So it's not like a blown foul call in a FIFA match is really any less accountable than a blown penalty call in an NFL game.

-My point is that transparency in the evaluation process matters, and as little of that as FIFA gives us, it's still way more than any American sport provides. American leagues assure us that they police their officials and scrutinize their every call, but we have absolutely zero insight into how this is done or the actions taken as a result. Can you name a single MLB umpire who was fired or sent to single A ball because of shitty calls? I can't. Maybe there were some, but MLB's stance is that the public has no right to know the details of any individual case.

Dick Bavetta has long been dogged by allegations of systematic bad calls. The FBI seemed more interested in his calls than whoever self-polices calls for the NBA. Even after information surfaced in federal court possibly implicating him in the Donaghy scandal, the NBA STILL assigned Bavetta to Finals games and weirdly, seems to be rather grudging about finally pushing him out of refereeing playoff games. You'd think if their independent audits of officiating didn't turn up anything bad on Bavetta, they'd be standing behind him all the way. And if they DID turn something up, you'd think they'd firmly turn against Bavetta. Instead we're getting this bizarre, wishy-washy response.

FIFA's officiating may not be quite as precise on individual calls, but the process for grading officials appears to be far speedier and more transparent than what we have. This makes for a better system on the whole and ensures fairness way better than the slow-response black box that we've got. The point is that benign imprecision (genuine officiating errors like failing to see a handball or spotting the football wrong) is unfortunate, but it's also random - in a system with only benign imprecision you're going to see the bad calls divided about 50/50 no matter how many of them there are in a game, so while you want to take steps to minimize them, in the long run they cancel each other out. What you really need to focus on to ensure fairness is stamping out malign imprecision - bad calls that are the result of conscious or unconscious bias on the part of officials. Our system's incentives do not appear to be aligned to eliminate this as well as FIFA's does.

Well said. All valid points.

I'm not sure replay could even be used on whatever it is we think subjective calls are. (Is determining whether defenders wrapped their arms around attacking players in the goal area subjective?) But I would guess replay is not really appropriate for soccer.

And we already know there are those who oppose its expansion in baseball. They prefer to live with the bad calls. So ....

I am not familiar with the details of the review process for officials in the four major U.S. sports, but I do know there is one, and that the evaluation process is used to advance officials to playoff rounds. Maybe it's not sufficient. And maybe there is corruption/bias despite it (certainly there has been). So, yeah, could be better.

Your points are all well-taken. My initial comments weren't so much centered on officiating as they were the overall cultural differences in U.S. sports vs. world soccer. Officiating plays into that, but it's only a part. And everyone at some point has a beef with the officials. I think you're right that errors of a benign nature tend to even out over time.

Anyways, I'm enjoying the games. And I'm switching my pick from Mexico to Portugal.

I realize the opposition wasn't up to it, but Portugal scored some beautiful goals.

EDIT: for typo

Edited June 21, 2010 by papsrus

[brownie]

It was nice to see Spain back in good form, not to speak of Portugal who had an open buffet at the North Korean goalmouth!

Waiting now to see the French team kicked out of the World Cup!

[sidewinder]

Waiting now to see the French team kicked out of the World Cup!

On the basis of performance to date, we will be joining you soon and Fabio will have a one way ticket to Rome. 'Entente Cordiale' back in place..

Edited June 22, 2010 by sidewinder

[neveronfriday]

Glad to see all this US paranoia hasn't killed this thread.

[Stefan Wood]

Halftime, looks like a shocker in the making. France looks terrible, and if South Africa scores another goal they have a shot of advancing! Uraguay over Mexico, but still more to play.

[brownie]

France is out!! Adieu les Bleus!

The 1-2 defeat against South Africa means goodbye to Raymond Domenech and his infamous team.

Good riddance!

And good luck to France's next coach Laurent Blanc. He will have to start from scratch!

[neveronfriday]

France is out!! Adieu les Bleus!

The 1-2 defeat against South Africa means goodbye to Raymond Domenech and his infamous team.

Good riddance!

And good luck to France's next coach Laurent Blanc. He will have to start from scratch!

That should be quite a homecoming for the team.

Pity that things developed that way. :/

Let's see if Germany has to go home the day after tomorrow (as usual, return tickets are already booked ... in case)

[papsrus]

How does the national soccer program work in France?

Was this team just a group of all-stars thrown together? How much did they train together?

Shouldn't the fatal flaws in the team have been discovered and corrected earlier?

Will the French get to the bottom of it?

[B. Goren.]

France is out!! Adieu les Bleus!

The 1-2 defeat against South Africa means goodbye to Raymond Domenech and his infamous team.

Good riddance!

And good luck to France's next coach Laurent Blanc. He will have to start from scratch!

[Brad]

How does the national soccer program work in France?

Was this team just a group of all-stars thrown together? How much did they train together?

Shouldn't the fatal flaws in the team have been discovered and corrected earlier?

Will the French get to the bottom of it?

I think most national teams are all star teams since all the players are in different leagues. Can't answer the other questions. However, before the WC started, they lost to China and that should have been a signal that things weren't right.

I also think it was a mistake for the French Federatoin to say that Domenech wasn't being rehired and then keep him as a coach. It's one thing when a manager or coach is told at the end of a season, as happens in many sports, that he will not be rehired but quite another when the fired coach is heading into the WC. Any authority he had was gone. They should have sent the new coach, Laurent Blanc. You can lay the blame for some of the antics that we witnessed on the Federation.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Brad

[brownie]

The problem with coach Raymond Domenech lies with the French soccer federation which signed him to a four-year contract in 2006 after the French team reached the World Cup final (that was the infamous final that saw forward Zidane headbut Italy's Materzazzi).

A number of soccer specialists criticized Domenech's selection at the time because of his erratic team management and decisions.

A firm believer in astrology, Domenech stuck to a decision to eliminate a worthy player like Robert Pires from the national team because Pires was a Scorpio!

Everything went wrong with Domenech's management of the French team these past years.

The French officials who insisted on letting Domenech handle the team will face the consequences of their decision very soon.

[porcy62]

A firm believer in astrology, Domenech stuck to a decision to eliminate a worthy player like Robert Pires from the national team because Pires was a Scorpio!

Ah, I am a Scorpio too, so that's the reason I think Domenech is the most unappealing trainer of the WC, actually he gained the title against strong competition: Lippi and Capello among the others.

On the other side I love Maradona's new look, quite a hick mafia mob, at least he smiles and hugs everyone, I'd do the same I'd got Messi and co. in my team.

[Tim McG]

The evidence is very clear since the Cold War days. Pick a sport, pick a venue, pick an IOC exclusion of American sports, pick a Tour de Farce attack on Lance Armstrong. It's all there and the WC replay is the most blatant example of anti-American bias I have ever seen. Bottom line: The International sports community has tried to cheat Americans out of legit wins since Josef Stalin. This cheating stuff is total bullshit and you know it. Prove me wrong.

Go Europe

Cycling officials have gone after more than just Lance Armstrong. In fact, I don't think cycling officials have really gone after Armstrong at all, have they? It's been the press, hasn't it? He's never been accused by any cycling officials of anything, has he?

The U.S. no-goal has not been the only bad call in this World Cup, nor certainly the history of the World Cup.

You'll have to be more specific about the "going back to Josef Stalin" thing, but that seems to fall outside the scope of the World Cup.

Granted.

It is not the only bad call. It is the only blantantly and obviously bad call. And it was directed at the USA.Nothing new here in International sports when American athletes have been involved. The Tour de Farce has a hoplessly flawed anti-doping system and have done nothing to squelch the French press either.

My point is this has been going on for decades and it is as International as the WC. It would be a strawman debate if the only focus should be on the WC officials and only the WC officals.

I think once we find out what the reasons are for that call, we will discover that Mali ref is as anti-American as the French skating judge a couple Winter Olympics ago. Or the refs in that USA vs. Russia basketball game in the Summer Olympics back in the 70s.

Edited June 22, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

As to the French...they got booted and sent home flying coach.

Fittingly, I believe.

[papsrus]

The French coach refusing to shake hands with the coach of South Africa after their match -- classless.

A show of disrespect for an opponent who just beat you. And the host country, no less. Terrible.

The guy has no idea of sportsmanship, apparently, which might help explain why they did so poorly, both on and off the field.

I'm liking the Mexico-Argentina match coming up. And as the ESPN crew keeps pointing out, the South American and Central American teams are kicking ass!

Was surprised to hear that Argentina's record against European squads has been terrible lately -- something like 3-11 over the past decade or something.

[Van Basten II]

http://photos.cyberpresse.ca/caricatures#enVedette/0/recherche/Rechercher%20un%20album/0/onglets/51/0/album/8103/198043/

[Stefan Wood]

US WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Free For All]

US WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In dramatic fashion, no less!