What exactly was Joe Henderson's issue with Michael Brecker's

[CJ Shearn]

I have been thinking about this one, I think Jim Sangrey brought it up here once, that Henderson called Brecker an "imitator". I've heard Henderson licks in Mike's playing before, but did Joe feel he wasn't properly acknowledged for the influence? Brecker always said how much of an impact Joe had on his playing.

[paul secor]

Perhaps recognition? Perhaps $?

[sonnymax]

How does acknowledging your influences make you any less an imitator? Perhaps Henderson believed Brecker wasn't bringing anything new to the table. Hence, he's an imitator, rather than an innovator.

[CJ Shearn]

Good point. I just never understood why Henderson was so sour about it.

[JSngry]

You gotta remember that until he signed w/Verve, Joe was very much a "cult figure", a "musicians' musician" as far as the general jazz public was concerned. Brecker was a "big name" long before Joe even got to be a whisper in the larger game.

[CJ Shearn]

Right..... even though Joe had that incredible creative run with Milestone, whether it worked musically all the time, IDK..... still strong though. I think maybe Joe thought "hey I did this first" and someone else was taking the credit in bringing it to a larger audience. I think Jimmy Smith felt the same way with how the media treated Joey DeFrancesco when he was first coming up and paid him all that attention being the young guy bringing jazz organ back.

Edited August 5, 2010 by CJ Shearn

[felser]

Right..... even though Joe had that incredible creative run with Milestone, whether it worked musically all the time, IDK..... still strong though. I think maybe Joe thought "hey I did this first" and someone else was taking the credit in bringing it to a larger audience. I think Jimmy Smith felt the same way with how the media treated Joey DeFrancesco when he was first coming up and paid him all that attention being the young guy bringing jazz organ back.

Did Brecker really sound that much like Henderson? I've certainly never mistaken one for the other (for that matter, I've never mistaken Smith and DeFrancesco for each other either). Brecker did seem at times to bring a certain facile-but-sterile genericism to the "state of the art" of tenor playing that I think has been negative impact. But the same has been true of other "name" players of the last 30 years (hello Pat Metheny and John Scofield, howze it going, Brad Mehldau and latter-day Herbie Hancock, good to see ya, post-'Blues Alley' Wynton Marsalis).

[JSngry]

Did Brecker really sound that much like Henderson?

Tonally, not even remotely. Vocabulary-wise...there are "overlaps".

[CJ Shearn]

Did Brecker really sound that much like Henderson?

Tonally, not even remotely. Vocabulary-wise...there are "overlaps".

Exactly. Like the fast trill lick that goes to a ritardando. I never mistook Henderson for Brecker or Smith for DeFrancesco either.

Edited August 5, 2010 by CJ Shearn

[Saxophone Tall]

As a tenor player of 51+ years, Mike sounded nothing like Joe at all: tone, conception, role, vocabulary, nothing. Joe was understandably pissed off that the larger media ignored him.  Both brought something new to the table, but Joe could never be said to be "facile but sterile."  Mike at times, could.  One of Mike's strengths is that this this not always the case.  Sure, he was over-recorded with all sorts of pop groups, but his solo shit is off the hook.  Both advanced the state of the horn, and nobody has since.  The "facile but sterile" crowd seems to grow daily.  "You can throw a brick 10 feet and hit 10 tenor players with Brecker chops, but none with taste" (Chritopher Pitts).

[nikogutierrezjazz]

On 1/13/2025 at 12:41 AM, Saxophone Tall said:

As a tenor player of 51+ years, Mike sounded nothing like Joe at all: tone, conception, role, vocabulary, nothing. Joe was understandably pissed off that the larger media ignored him.  Both brought something new to the table, but Joe could never be said to be "facile but sterile."  Mike at times, could.  One of Mike's strengths is that this this not always the case.  Sure, he was over-recorded with all sorts of pop groups, but his solo shit is off the hook.  Both advanced the state of the horn, and nobody has since.  The "facile but sterile" crowd seems to grow daily.  "You can throw a brick 10 feet and hit 10 tenor players with Brecker chops, but none with taste" (Chritopher Pitts).

Joe was just the better player who didn't want to play outside of jazz, even though most of Brecker's solo stuff isn't even really jazz, but he still was using Joe's vocab, which I think offended Hendy, the fact that he was playing his licks on smooth jazz albums and not giving him credit lol.

[Peter Friedman]

On 8/5/2010 at 10:42 AM, felser said:

 

Did Brecker really sound that much like Henderson? I've certainly never mistaken one for the other (for that matter, I've never mistaken Smith and DeFrancesco for each other either). Brecker did seem at times to bring a certain facile-but-sterile genericism to the "state of the art" of tenor playing that I think has been negative impact. But the same has been true of other "name" players of the last 30 years (hello Pat Metheny and John Scofield, howze it going, Brad Mehldau and latter-day Herbie Hancock, good to see ya, post-'Blues Alley' Wynton Marsalis).

I never really cared for Mike Brecker (did like a number of Randy Breckers Albums).

Felt the same way About Pat Metheny, and Brad Mehldau.

[JSngry]

 

[Milestones]

"Brecker's solo stuff isn't even really jazz."  Really?  I mean, really?

 

[felser]

And the tables (possibly) turned.  There's a story (maybe apochryphal) about Kenny G coming up to Brecker at a festival and saying to Brecker something like "you are so great!  I can't understand why I'm so much more popular when you're so great!" and Brecker simply replying "neither can I" and walking away.  Not sure where I first heard that story, maybe even here...

[Milestones]

Coming back to the original strange statement about Brecker not playing real jazz, those who know and love real jazz just need to listen him on those records on Impulse and Verve.  And then, too, maybe someone should ask why Herbie Hancock, Pat Metheny, Dave Holland, Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner, Charlie Haden, Jack DeJohnette, etc. were out there playing "not real" jazz with schlocky pop-jazz player Michael Brecker.

 

[Guy Berger]

I remember when this thread was created 15 years ago.  My opinion about Brecker’s playing has improved over that time.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

There were opportunities outside of Jazz that paid well and Brecker made a lot of money doing this. That said, he made some great Jazz records as well, so I'd have a hard time agreeing with the sentiment that "his solo stuff isn't really Jazz". Sure, a majority of his work was outside the Jazz sphere but he is not the only Jazz musician to chose to make money outside of straight ahead Jazz.

To be perfectly honest, considering his career as a whole, he did not really even make a lot of solo records. I count maybe 20 records under his leadership/co-leadership or as a member of The Brecker Brothers. Of those 20 recordings, there are some Jazz gems.

I also know that the three times I saw him play live, he was playing Jazz, no question.

[mikeweil]

19 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

I never really cared for Mike Brecker (did like a number of Randy Breckers Albums).

Felt the same way About Pat Metheny, and Brad Mehldau.

Same here. But I know many musicians over here who rave about these three.

I think their musical approach is easier to comprehend than the black roots for German guys.

Edited 10 hours ago by mikeweil

[Joe]

The band in featured in the video above, BTW.

Randy Brecker, Freddie Hubbard, trumpet; Joe Farrell, flute, tenor sax; Michael Brecker, Joe Henderson, tenor sax; George Duke, keyboards; Robben Ford, electric guitar; Alphonso Johnson, electric bass; Peter Erskine, drums.

Apparently to be heard on Jazz Of The 80's (Eastworld, EWJ-80190)

[Milestones]

I like Pat Metheny a lot, but have yet to come around much on Brad Mehldau.

I saw Metheny a couple of years back with a "Side-Eye" trio, and it was definitely one of the finest concerts I have ever seen.  

Metheny and Brecker had a great musical partnership.