LPs. How much time fits on a side?

[Hardbopjazz]

Does anyone know the amount of time a LP can have on a side?

[Daniel A]

It depends on the dynamic range of the material. Low volume passages have narrower grooves. There are classical LPs with up to 45 minutes on one side.

[jazztrain]

Found the following on line:

When initially introduced, 12-inch LPs played for a maximum of 45 minutes, divided over two sides. However, in 1952, Columbia Records began to bring out extended-play LPs that played for as long as 52 minutes, or 26 minutes per side. These were used mainly for the original cast albums of some Broadway musicals, such as Kiss Me, Kate and My Fair Lady, or in order to fit an entire play, such as the 1950 production of Don Juan in Hell, onto just two LPs. The 52+ minute playing time remained rare, however, because of mastering limitations, and most LPs continued to be issued with a 30- to 45-minute playing time throughout the lifetime of their production. However, some albums would eventually exceed even the 52-minute limitation, with single albums going to as long as ninety minutes in the case of Arthur Fiedler's 1976 LP 90 Minutes with Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops, made by Radio Shack. However, such records had to be cut with much narrower spacing between the grooves, which allowed for a much smaller amount of dynamic range on the records, and meant that playing the record with a worn needle could damage the record. It also resulted in a much quieter sound. (Other notably long albums included La Monte Young's Dream House 78' 17", whose two sides were each just under 40 minutes; Bob Dylan's 1976 album Desire, with side two being just shy of thirty minutes; Brian Eno's 1975 album Discreet Music, whose A-side exceeded thirty minutes; and Todd Rundgren's Initiation, totalling 67:32 over two sides). Spoken word and comedy albums, not having a wide range of musical instrumentation to reproduce, can be cut with much narrower spacing between the grooves; for example, The Comic Strip, released by Springtime Records in 1981, has a Side A lasting 38:04 and a Side B lasting 31:08, for a total of 69:12.

Does anyone know the amount of time a LP can have on a side?

[Christiern]

I recall hearing that fitting Beethoven's Ninth was the criterion.

[Teasing the Korean]

I have classical LPs with 30 minutes per side, but they tend to be a bit noisier (because the signal is not as loud) and they tend to distort toward the inner groove.

[medjuck]

One of the Miles concert Lps (4 and more?) had 30 minutes on one side

[Chuck Nessa]

No matter the equipment, 17-20 minutes gives the best sound for stereo sources. All else is compromised by level or dynamics. This info is for all analogue info.

[Utevsky]

I recall hearing that fitting Beethoven's Ninth was the criterion.

I heard that the Japanese engineers who invented the audio CD had a goal to fit Beethoven's Ninth Symphony on a single disk, not that LP producers had that goal. The Ninth clocks in at about 75 minutes, depending on the conductor, so that makes sense.

Edited October 8, 2010 by David Utevsky

[Chuck Nessa]

Yup. It was an order from the head of Sony.

[Hardbopjazz]

Thanks for this information.

[porcy62]

Yup. It was an order from the head of Sony.

The head of Sony:

[bertrand]

Chuck,

Do you think this was a bad decision on the part of the head of Sony?

Bertrand.

[B. Clugston]

Miles Davis' Get Up With It had two 32 minute sidelong tracks.

The longest I have is Side 3 of Veljo Tormis Forgotten People on ECM, clocking in at 39:10.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

if youre todd rundgren is 55 and up

Edited October 9, 2010 by chewy

[carnivore]

I was producing albums back in the 80s and it was a great relief when CDs arrived, from a content point of view. If the music on your tapes was reasonably dynamic and you wanted to avoid distortion and possible needle skips you were nuts if you took anything to the disc cutting suite that contained more than 28 minutes, and about 25 would give you a better result and eight 3 minute tracks per side. Sibilance and its attendant distortion, especially on average quality stereos was another cutting problem that the digital medium solved. The American pressed LP versions of Art Pepper's 'Winter Moon' and an album on which Zoot plays 'Never Let Me Go' were almost unlistenable due to instances of high frequency peak distortion that should have been caught in the processing. The CDs are fine.

[Christiern]

I mis-read the thread header, sorry about that. As for LPs, nobody has mention the "variable groove" process introduced by Columbia in the late 1940s. By varying the space between the grooves, narrowing it during soft passages, they were able to obtain a half hour on a 12" LP side with uniform quality. Before that, as I understand it, everything was "microgroove," which resulted in distortion on loud passages. It was hell on Wagner's stuff.

[Christiern]

There is a very interesting, detailed history of the LPs development on this site, just scroll down about a page.

[Hardbopjazz]

I mis-read the thread header, sorry about that. As for LPs, nobody has mention the "variable groove" process introduced by Columbia in the late 1940s. By varying the space between the grooves, narrowing it during soft passages, they were able to obtain a half hour on a 12" LP side with uniform quality. Before that, as I understand it, everything was "microgroove," which resulted in distortion on loud passages. It was hell on Wagner's stuff.

I wonder why other record companies didn't adopt this process, or did they?

[Ted O'Reilly]

I mis-read the thread header, sorry about that. As for LPs, nobody has mention the "variable groove" process introduced by Columbia in the late 1940s. By varying the space between the grooves, narrowing it during soft passages, they were able to obtain a half hour on a 12" LP side with uniform quality. Before that, as I understand it, everything was "microgroove," which resulted in distortion on loud passages. It was hell on Wagner's stuff.

I wonder why other record companies didn't adopt this process, or did they?

It must have been a universal thing, as I recall disc-cutting facilities in Toronto doing it. I think there was an extra tape head used, before the signal got to the cutter, "warning" that extra space would be needed for an upcoming loud passage.

I was at the direct-to-disc sessions for the Rob McConnell Boss Brass sessions, and there was verbal cuing from the Producer-with-score, to the Mastering Engineer, so he could manually control the cutter for more or less groove-space needed for upcoming passages. Even so, there were occasions when 15 minutes in, a whole side had to be aborted because the cutter blew it... The sides maxed out at about 16-17 minutes.

I don't have it at hand, but there was a Monk-in-Europe twofer from Riverside that had about 30 minutes per side.

[BruceH]

I have classical LPs with 30 minutes per side, but they tend to be a bit noisier (because the signal is not as loud) and they tend to distort toward the inner groove.

No matter the equipment, 17-20 minutes gives the best sound for stereo sources. All else is compromised by level or dynamics. This info is for all analogue info.

Yes, and yes. 30-minute per side playing times tended to be a stunt and not a great idea, sound-wise. The average tended to be 18 and 1/2 minutes per side, like Chuck says. Though some were much briefer, particularly country albums.