2010-2011 Hot Stove Thread

[JSngry]

My personal reservations aside, I hope you're right. We'll see.

(but as far as heat goes...Texas heat is pretty brutal. We're talking 3-digits plus humidity over 50%, routinely. Nighttime lows never below 80. It does drain you over time if you you don't manage it. Never spent a summer in Philly, but I doubt it's as bad as a DFW summer. But Houston...that's even worse...)

[Chalupa]

Leyritz Acquitted

[Tim McG]

My personal reservations aside, I hope you're right. We'll see.

(but as far as heat goes...Texas heat is pretty brutal. We're talking 3-digits plus humidity over 50%, routinely. Nighttime lows never below 80. It does drain you over time if you you don't manage it. Never spent a summer in Philly, but I doubt it's as bad as a DFW summer. But Houston...that's even worse...)

Good point.

Where we live now triple digit heat is the norm for us, too. Though the humidity rarely gets above 40%.

However, my wife's family hails from the New England area. Those 90/60 days when we have visited weren't terribly pleasant either. I remember golfing in Reading, PA and being dripping wet before I teed off on the first hole...I was squishing in my shoes by the end of the first nine! Too much for this California boy.

I think cooler heads [if you'll pardon the pun] will prevail. Texas would be nuts to let Lee go, IMHO.

Edited November 21, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

Hey!

Looks like Aubrey Huff will be back with the Giants for at least two more years!

[ghost of miles]

Ken Davidoff just tweeted that Andy Pettitte's leaning towards coming back for one last season as a Yankee in 2011.

And you've probably already seen the reports this afternoon that the Yankees have offered Cliff Lee 6 years/140 million, and that Lee's holding out for a 7th season. Frankly, that kind of contract should be viewed as a good thing by those who, ah, do not count themselves as Yankee fans. Sure, Lee will probably give NY several good seasons, but they'll be saddled with yet another huge contract for an aging player.

And I still don't rule out Lee's eventually signing with Texas instead, especially if they're willing to offer a 7-year deal around $150 million+.

Edited November 23, 2010 by ghost of miles

[Quincy]

Ken Davidoff just tweeted that Andy Pettitte's leaning towards coming back for one last season as a Yankee in 2011.

And you've probably already seen the reports this afternoon that the Yankees have offered Cliff Lee 6 years/140 million, and that Lee's holding out for a 7th season. Frankly, that kind of contract should be viewed as a good thing by those who, ah, do not count themselves as Yankee fans. Sure, Lee will probably give NY several good seasons, but they'll be saddled with yet another huge contract for an aging player.

These pitcher contract demands with the extra year (or 2 or 3) remind me of box set purchase considerations. "Oh man, I really want discs 1-3 as it's killa, but 4 peters out and 5 is garbage." (This example doesn't work with all boxes as sometimes disc 1 is the culprit. )

Glad to hear Pettitte is leaning towards coming back. I'm just so used to seeing him in October it'd be too weird to contemplate having fall without him.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Quincy

[JSngry]

And you've probably already seen the reports this afternoon that the Yankees have offered Cliff Lee 6 years/140 million, and that Lee's holding out for a 7th season.

Hey - fuck the Yankees (still!), and as soon as the Rangers have even a semi-viable Plan B , fuck Cliff Lee too.

7 years? Really? Based on what?

You know what, fuck Cliff Lee, period, even if he does sign with us. I smell prima-donna just a little too strongly... give me one or two more no-name pitchers who can reach that post-season No-Name Colby Lewis zone more often than not all year long & Mr. Lee can go sit in the air-conditioner for as long as he likes. Even longer.

Of course, I'd still rather be with him than without him, but...fuck him nevertheless.

[Dave James]

Any time the Yankees are involved (with the possible exception of the current negotiations with Derek Jeter) the phrase, "money is no object" has to come into play. They are notorious for paying whatever it takes for however long it takes to get the guys they want. Just look at A-Rod. They'll be paying him $30 million when he 42 friggin' years old. No way is Cliff Lee worth what they're discussing. If I were Cashman, I'd up the annual ante and reduce the years, but then I suppose that would be offensive to Sabbathia in terms of total annual dollars. Kids, this is what it is and nothing is going to change what it is until MLB implements some kind of meaningful salary cap.

Glad to see Pettitte leaning towards another year.

Jim, I think if the Rangers don't get Lee, they will make a serious play for Zack Greinke. They could do a lot worse. He's both younger and healthier than Lee. Plus they wouldn't have to worry about losing him to New York since he's already said he'll never play for the Yankees.

[JSngry]

I'm all for younger, healthier, and less vain.

(and thanks for understanding that "fuck the Yankees" is more or less a catchphrase not intended in any way to stir personal animus)

And I'm still not in favor of a salary cap, think it's un-American to cap an individual's earning potential, but... With freedom comes responsibility, and owners have a responsibility to be just as hard-ass in negotiations as do players, and this whole "money is no object" thing, of which the Yankees have by no means been the only guilty parties, is just nuts.

I'll say it again, for the Yankees and for the Rangers - Cliff Lee? 7 years? Really? Based on what?

[ghost of miles]

Blogging Bombers now quoting another source as saying that no offer whatsoever has been made to Lee.

Still, I think the initial report is quite likely what it will come down to... NY offering around that much and Lee trying to squeeze an extra year out of either them or Texas. Believe me, people over at Pinstripe Alley aren't happy about the thought of signing him through either age 38 or 39. Sure, Andy Pettitte did well this past year (although his age surely factored into how long it took him to come back from his groin injury), and I'd say he's a good bet to win 15 games in 2011 if he stays healthy... but he won't be making $24-$25 million either.

The Jeter contract negotiations are already getting ugly, btw, and I don't expect them to get much better anytime soon. He really dug himself a hole by having such a bad contract year. Supposedly NY's offering 3 years/45 million, and supposedly he wants more years/more money. I could see offering him 4 years/65-70 million at most... much more than he's worth now as a player, objectively speaking, but Jeter is Jeter and all that.

[PHILLYQ]

I love Jeter, but three years @$45mil is too long and too much $$. On the open market he MIGHT get 2years and about $10-15mil if a proper sucker is found. He'll be 37 in June and he had a horrid year at the plate with doubtful prospects of that improving(I think it'll get worse). Despite the Gold Glove he's not much of a top-tier shortstop anymore either. They can't play forever...

[Brad]

Cashman said it's three years at 15 million per. A lot of posturing going on but it will get done. I'm sure the 15 isn't their final offer but just opening number.

[ghost of miles]

This'll never happpen, but given how excessive A-Rod's contract is, imagine if he went to Steinbrenner/Cashman and said, "Hey, you know what? Take $3-4 million annually out of my contract over the next 3-4 years and give it to Jeter instead." A-Rod's inflated salary comes down, Jeter gets something closer to what he wants on an annual basis, the Yankees don't "lose" money in terms of total payroll, and A-Rod comes off looking like a pretty good guy, teammate and friend.

Like I said, ain't never gonna happen, but if I had A-Rod's cash and a true desire to finish redeeming a busted-up friendship... that might be a nice way to do it.

[Brad]

Sounds like things are getting ugly. Cashman told the Times that he's a free agent, meaning he can look elsewhere if he wants to and that's he's concerned about Jeter's age, etc. while Jeter's agent says he sees Jeter as Babe Ruth. As the Times said, that's the problem. The paper also notes this is taking time away from pursuing Lee.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Brad

[Chalupa]

Someone should remind Jeter's agent that Babe Ruth didn't finish his career with the Yankees.

[JSngry]

Nor Mays with the Giants. Nor Aaron with the Braves.

Nor Boog Powell with the Orioles, and that's the worst one of all.

[Dave James]

Someone should remind Jeter's agent that Babe Ruth didn't finish his career with the Yankees.

In 1931, when Babe Ruth was 36 years old, the same age as Jeter, he hit 46 home runs, had 163 RBIs and batted .373. The Yankees rewarded him by cutting his salary from $80,000 to $75,000 for the 1932 season. That year, as a 37-year-old, Ruth's numbers slipped to 41 homers, 137 RBIs and a .341 batting average, so they cut him to $52,000 for 1933. In 1933, the 38-year-old Ruth was clearly finished: a mere 34 homers, 103 RBIs, .301 batting average. Numbers that Jeter would have killed to have as a 24 or a 36-year-old. In 1934, his last year with the Yankees, Ruth hit 22 home runs, had 84 RIB's and batted .288. His salary was $32,500.

[Quincy]

Someone should remind Jeter's agent that Babe Ruth didn't finish his career with the Yankees.

In 1931, when Babe Ruth was 36 years old, the same age as Jeter, he hit 46 home runs, had 163 RBIs and batted .373. The Yankees rewarded him by cutting his salary from $80,000 to $75,000 for the 1932 season. That year, as a 37-year-old, Ruth's numbers slipped to 41 homers, 137 RBIs and a .341 batting average, so they cut him to $52,000 for 1933. In 1933, the 38-year-old Ruth was clearly finished: a mere 34 homers, 103 RBIs, .301 batting average. Numbers that Jeter would have killed to have as a 24 or a 36-year-old. In 1934, his last year with the Yankees, Ruth hit 22 home runs, had 84 RIB's and batted .288. His salary was $32,500.

Good stuff! Just for fun I hit the U.S. inflation calculator. Because of deflation Ruth actually got a raise with his first pay cut (those were especially tough times) but still, it always is an eye opener how hardball salary negotiations could be with upper echelon of Hall Of Famers. Here's Ruth's salary translated into 2010 dollars.

1931 - $1,151,111

1932 - $1,197,323

1933 - $874,844

1934 - $530,456

[Jazzmoose]

This'll never happpen, but given how excessive A-Rod's contract is, imagine if he went to Steinbrenner/Cashman and said, "Hey, you know what? Take $3-4 million annually out of my contract over the next 3-4 years and give it to Jeter instead." A-Rod's inflated salary comes down, Jeter gets something closer to what he wants on an annual basis, the Yankees don't "lose" money in terms of total payroll, and A-Rod comes off looking like a pretty good guy, teammate and friend.

I've got to visit some of these other threads more often...

[Brad]

This'll never happpen, but given how excessive A-Rod's contract is, imagine if he went to Steinbrenner/Cashman and said, "Hey, you know what? Take $3-4 million annually out of my contract over the next 3-4 years and give it to Jeter instead." A-Rod's inflated salary comes down, Jeter gets something closer to what he wants on an annual basis, the Yankees don't "lose" money in terms of total payroll, and A-Rod comes off looking like a pretty good guy, teammate and friend.

Like I said, ain't never gonna happen, but if I had A-Rod's cash and a true desire to finish redeeming a busted-up friendship... that might be a nice way to do it.

I seem to remember that someone did this once, at least the offer anyway, but human nature, being what it is, not too many people will do this.

[T.D.]

As excessive as A-Roid's contract is, the Texas Rangers are still paying a good chunk of it. Funnily, A-Rod was one of Texas's biggest creditors when the club went bankrupt. I don't know how the payments are spread out, but according to this article, "...The team traded him to the Yankees in 2004, but agreed to pay an estimated $67 million of the $179 million still owed."

IIRC, net of the Texas payments, the Yankee$ themselves have been paying A-Rod somewhat less than Jeter. And I suspect that the unpaid Texas salary is worth somewhat less than 100 cents on the dollar on a mark-to-market basis...

[Dan Gould]

A-Rod was a creditor of the Rangers because they are on the hook for deferred payments due to him. The Yankees, having signed A-Rod as a free agent after the 2007 season, are completely on the hook for his salary up through his age 42 season.

[Dan Gould]

sources close to the Jeter/Close camp have said their starting point was six years, $150 million and that they aren't budging on $25 million per year - which would effectively get the captain about even in annual average salary to Alex Rodriguez, the real benchmark from their standpoint in this negotiation.

Read more

[ghost of miles]

Close is already denying that that's their starting point, but I might not be so surprised, if they're ultimately hoping to simply continue Jeter at his present salary for at least four more years. Part of what's making this process so "messy" is that the Internets are perched on and quickly reporting every word or rumor concerning this and any other significant free-agent situation...but especially this one, given that it's Jeter and the Yankees.

OTOH if that's close to what Jeter and Close really ultimately want, they're over-the-moon crazy, and Jeter would be well advised to take a long, hard look at how things played out for Johnny Damon last year. (I know Jeter is an Iconic Yankee and all that, but away from NY he's not going to find much more, objectively speaking, on the market than Damon did.) I think NY will eventually move to a 4 yr/70 million offer, or else they'll come up with some convoluted, "creative" deal that compensates Jeter down the road in some manner. If Jeter doesn't accept that, then good luck finding a better or equivalent deal elsewhere. IMO he's certainly losing the publicity battle, especially in light of the NY Daily News story to which Dan linked. (And I'm sure I don't have to tell you this hasn't gone over well at Pinstripe Alley.)

EDIT: the NY Times says he wants 4-5 years at 23-24 million a year and suggests that an "obvious compromise" would be almost exactly what I've speculated, in the neighborhood of 4 years/76 million, with Jeter making a tad more than what he makes now annually...but it also goes on to suggest that NY might not ultimately be willing to offer that much.

Edited November 27, 2010 by ghost of miles

[ghost of miles]

In non-Yankee hot-stove news (I'm sure many are wanting a break!), Jsngry and I had a fun exchange off-board the other night about this fellow:

Evidently there was an interview with him on the MLB Network recently. What an amazing player, one of my favorites from the 1970s and 80s... (and as I told Jsngry, I have his Strat-O-Mat card for the '77 season...you wanna talk about a bad&*# hitter!) who are some other favorites of that era from posters here?