What to Reissue Number Two

[GA Russell]

We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue.

Yes, and I'm surprised we haven't seen support for my idea of issuing albums from out of print Mosaics which have never been released on CD individually.

[clifford_thornton]

Here's one that I can't believe I didn't mention earlier.

Sirone - Artistry - (Of the Cosmos)

A brilliant quartet LP with James Newton, Bernard Fennell and Don Moye. Love it.

[colinmce]

We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue.

I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly.

[johnlitweiler]

There's a terrific Baby Face Willette performance, "Song of the Universe," that may be the best jazz organ-trio piece I've ever heard. It's on his 1964 Argo LP "Behind the 8-Ball" - Willette; Ben White, guitar; Jerol Donovan, drums. To me the rest of the LP is less rewarding. But it's his last album, which sort of amplifies the Willette tragedy.

Let's be careful about how we use "classic," which is a word for which certain (for example) Armstrong, Morton, Ellington, Bird, Ornette recordings set the standard. Of course the Dixon and Hemphill and Joe Daley and Carter-Bradford recordings are marvelous music and historically quite important. Bless Jonathan for rediscovering them.

BTW Jonathan is yet another of the many distinguished jazz d.j.s on WHPK 88.5FM Chicago (www.whpk.org).

[David Ayers]

John I thought you would have been taking the chance to call for reissue of any titles you list in The Freedom Principle that haven't yet come back as CD!

As for the idea of a classic, I agree there are few stone cold classics, and I also think that almost all of what matters is well known. Collectors tend to think much more matters than does, equate scarcity with importance, think in terms of plugging gaps, and in a generous spirit, having learned the pleasures of minor art, mistakenly over-rate all sorts of lesser attainments. I think though there is another kind of classic which might not be part of a straight line development (as with say Coltrane) but which might both (a) incorporate some new or rarely used principles and (2) come off particularly well. This kind of minor classic is spotted around but its nature is that it can be overlooked if the main artists involved are not among the very greatest. There may be just a few titles which should come back for that kind of reason. We don't really need Ellington or Ornette or other heavily exposed artists, even if the titles people want to see are kind of classic (A Drum is a Woman, Crisis). But maybe we need such singular classics as those which Jonathan proposes to reissue, or... well top of my list is New York Art Quartet, Mohawk (Fontana) which I think has the necessary modernist credentials, originality and singularity (well there are a couple of lesser NYAQ records). So to my way of thinking there is a kind of classic like that which is a bit more really than a good date pursued according to established principles and really of a piece with other available work by a particular set of artists. Oh and like a number of things people have mentioned so far Behind the 8 Ball is readily available as an LP and has been for years, and there was a CD in Japan, and there is also a CD from Groove Hut (which people will probably line up to say is illegal whether they know it is or not) combined with Mo Rock... In parenthesis, since one of the criteria is audiophile collectibility, and since jazz audiophiles will in many cases prefer LP to CD, I'd say the existence of a decent LP would rule out the need for CD reissue.

As for Les Stances a Sophie (Mr Bagachelles!) you do know it is in print on LP, CD and DVD, don't you...?

If all we end up saying here is that we aren't satisfied with the remastering, format or perceived legality (like we know) of titles which are basically well known and easily obtainable then we aren't getting very far.

Edited April 15, 2011 by David Ayers

[AmirBagachelles]

Legality, legitimacy, and audio quality should not be subordinate to other goals. Shady needle drop reissues (which include those with big corporate label EU claims) really don't cut it. I have great CD bootlegs of Crisis, Mohawk, Horo LPs, you name it, but I would buy legitimate reissues from proper source material (even if no better sonically than boots) in a second. We all should.

[David Ayers]

Well, maybe it is true that the Americans Swinging in Paris issue of this material is a needle drop, I don't know and you don't address the specific point, but it bears the EMI logo and was part of a much-discussed series, so I don't really know why you are slamming it as just a phoney with 'big corporate label EU claims.' That music is owned by EMI, full stop. The issue is legitimate and so I wonder why you don't just buy it instead of questioning its provenance? Maybe Jonathan will consider this a brilliant idea for a reissue, who knows, but in any case here is the EMI version which is in print and cheap: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pathe-Sessions-Art-Ensemble-Chicago/dp/B000065BS0/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1302882887&sr=1-1

Edited April 15, 2011 by David Ayers

[paul secor]

The NYAQ's Mohawk was issued on CD. I have a copy. Probably long o/p, tho, and is worthy of reissue.

Chuck has commented on Sophie - post 157. He says that it's a needle drop with ok sound. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

This thread has turned into "my ideas of what to reissue are better than yours."

[sidewinder]

Nuclear War was issued on a 12-inch EP by the UK punk label Y Records. I don't know what the Atavistic CD reissue contains otherwise.

There's a 12" LP of this as well, on the same label (Italian-only issue), also on 'Music Box' - elusive Greek issue.

Edited April 15, 2011 by sidewinder

[colinmce]

This thread has turned into "my ideas of what to reissue are better than yours."

I'm not so sure about that. I think it's an interesting debate.

[David Ayers]

The NYAQ's Mohawk was issued on CD. I have a copy. Probably long o/p, tho, and is worthy of reissue.

Chuck has commented on Sophie - post 157. He says that it's a needle drop with ok sound. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

This thread has turned into "my ideas of what to reissue are better than yours."

Um, your post is #83 so I'll wait for Chuck's #157. In the meantime, so what if it is a needle drop? It is still theirs and it is still in print. They also licensed it to Soul Jazz Records in the UK which is a legitimate business (their shop is in Soho, their own label issues are truly original). We can only wait to see what Chuck will say about that particular issue in post #157. What I think happens here is that the rants against European issues are all about legitimating all the stealing that goes on. So all Europeans are Andorrans and therefore thieves so it is OK to rip and download the music they either stole or took from second rate sources. When Mosaic issue needle drops (as they do) no-one even dreams of criticising them. I think there is a lot of fantasy going on around these questions of legitimacy and scary 'foreign' issues.

[AmirBagachelles]

Nobody was ranting here but I will now. Most of us, including me, bought/buy all the needle drops of classic shit, shady and otherwise. But if you want to jump ugly, you and the EMI guys and their logo should get a room. Just because they are mega-corporate and put stuff out doesn't mean or not mean it's legitimate and the artists got paid etc., but I can sure question those important attributes of "provenance" with a reasonable post. Harumphhhhhfffft. Why aren't the source tapes used? Maybe they don't own the rights in the clear. Original artwork? The new cover bit on the reissue is often a nice try to dodge piracy litigation. Gotta give credit for that old EU ingenuity and elbow grease.

[David Ayers]

Les Stances a Sophie was recorded and issued by Pathe-Marconi. That's EMI. I'd like to hear your theory of how they owned it when they made it and issued it but not now.

[B. Clugston]

Third World with Dollar Brand, Don Cherry and Carlos Ward is a great one which deserves wider attention.

[paul secor]

The NYAQ's Mohawk was issued on CD. I have a copy. Probably long o/p, tho, and is worthy of reissue.

Chuck has commented on Sophie - post 157. He says that it's a needle drop with ok sound. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

This thread has turned into "my ideas of what to reissue are better than yours."

Um, your post is #83 so I'll wait for Chuck's #157. In the meantime, so what if it is a needle drop? It is still theirs and it is still in print. They also licensed it to Soul Jazz Records in the UK which is a legitimate business (their shop is in Soho, their own label issues are truly original). We can only wait to see what Chuck will say about that particular issue in post #157. What I think happens here is that the rants against European issues are all about legitimating all the stealing that goes on. So all Europeans are Andorrans and therefore thieves so it is OK to rip and download the music they either stole or took from second rate sources. When Mosaic issue needle drops (as they do) no-one even dreams of criticising them. I think there is a lot of fantasy going on around these questions of legitimacy and scary 'foreign' issues.

Sorry Dave. Post #157 in this thread.

[David Ayers]

The NYAQ's Mohawk was issued on CD. I have a copy. Probably long o/p, tho, and is worthy of reissue.

Chuck has commented on Sophie - post 157. He says that it's a needle drop with ok sound. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

This thread has turned into "my ideas of what to reissue are better than yours."

Um, your post is #83 so I'll wait for Chuck's #157. In the meantime, so what if it is a needle drop? It is still theirs and it is still in print. They also licensed it to Soul Jazz Records in the UK which is a legitimate business (their shop is in Soho, their own label issues are truly original). We can only wait to see what Chuck will say about that particular issue in post #157. What I think happens here is that the rants against European issues are all about legitimating all the stealing that goes on. So all Europeans are Andorrans and therefore thieves so it is OK to rip and download the music they either stole or took from second rate sources. When Mosaic issue needle drops (as they do) no-one even dreams of criticising them. I think there is a lot of fantasy going on around these questions of legitimacy and scary 'foreign' issues.

Sorry Dave. Post #157 in this thread.

Oh sorry Paul - in fact, I remembered reading it - just thought I'd tease you......

[AmirBagachelles]

I got nothin', no theory. Needle drop, no cover art, prominent and critically acclaimed work. Raises questions for me. No regional slur intended, sorry. You EU guys remain good jazz fans as far as I know (but you should know there's been some talk...).

[Chuck Nessa]

Some sort of answer on the AEC / EMI stuff. EMI seems to have lost some or all of the tapes. All cd reissues have needle drops - some with noise and some over-cleaned.

I have lp master tapes provided by EMI back in 1970. They are in fine shape.

My contract with EMI might be a point of contention - there is a perpetuity clause open for discussion. Watch my posts.

Soul Jazz seems to be a legit company, but they copied my artwork adaptation of the original without asking permission. When I emailed them about this, they agreed to send me 100 copies of the cd as payment. I have no problem with them.

[ep1str0phy]

Third World with Dollar Brand, Don Cherry and Carlos Ward is a great one which deserves wider attention.

So it isn't a classic--merely an album requiring greater exposure (and so not the sort of music that will send people ambling down the brick and mortar aisles)... BUT:

THIS. It's not the first thing that might come to mind, but once you hear it, you will get it--a definite "lost" masterpiece. I would rate it higher than anything I've heard from either Brand's discography or Ward's, if only because the music is both so intensely well-integrated and ecstatically free (minus a drummer, of course, this trio grooves tremendously). I first heard this amidst a crest of enthusiasm for Don Cherry's 60's/70's world music/experimental synthesis, and I might say that this is the better, in respects, of stuff like Eternal Rhythm--if only for the fact that it focuses the energy of the larger group excursions into something both endlessly idiomatically malleable and airtight/un-fillered. It's also very accessible, since much of the music rests on Brand's vamp/groove structures (and yet grainy and contorted--Cherry at his finest). So sweet.

Edited April 16, 2011 by ep1str0phy

[sidewinder]

Soul Jazz seems to be a legit company, but they copied my artwork adaptation of the original without asking permission. When I emailed them about this, they agreed to send me 100 copies of the cd as payment. I have no problem with them.

They are good guys - glad to hear that they were able to sort something out.

[David Ayers]

[clifford_thornton]

The NYAQ's Mohawk was issued on CD. I have a copy. Probably long o/p, tho, and is worthy of reissue.

I have it on good authority that Mohawk is coming out again as a reissue, along with a bunch of unissued stuff. Keep your ears to the ground.

[ep1str0phy]

The NYAQ's Mohawk was issued on CD. I have a copy. Probably long o/p, tho, and is worthy of reissue.

I have it on good authority that Mohawk is coming out again as a reissue, along with a bunch of unissued stuff. Keep your ears to the ground.

Oh hell yes. It's the best NYAQ album, IMO.

[Head Man]

The NYAQ's Mohawk was issued on CD. I have a copy. Probably long o/p, tho, and is worthy of reissue.

I have it on good authority that Mohawk is coming out again as a reissue, along with a bunch of unissued stuff. Keep your ears to the ground.

It would be wonderful to have the whole series of Fontana albums with the Marte Roling covers available again on CD. Some (all?) were released in Japan way back when, and I have a copy of Mohawk (and others)from then. It's a wonderful album with the highlight for me being Roswell Rudd's playing on "Knocking on the White House door".

[David Ayers]

Soul Jazz seems to be a legit company, but they copied my artwork adaptation of the original without asking permission. When I emailed them about this, they agreed to send me 100 copies of the cd as payment. I have no problem with them.

They are good guys - glad to hear that they were able to sort something out.

They have a wonderful store in Soho and a huge and stimulating list of issues on their own label. They are a big player and showed their class when it turned out they had accidentally used the modified cover from the US reissue which turned out not to be part of their license.

Meanwhile at least we have established that EMI commissioned recorded paid for and own the so-called Pathe Sessions of the AEC. Despite the protectionist and nationalist rhetoric which has come to dominate this board, we should remember that there is a reason that so many Americans came to work in Europe. The odds and ends of reissues which we are discussing here are insignificant alongside the huge catalogue of issues from the 70s and 80s in particular on European labels. Incidentally I am one of those that basically thinks the European improvisers took the baton from the Americans and took improv the one step further it needed to go. If we want to look at models for what independent labels can be like, look at Black Saint/Soul Note, set their continuous support for Bill Dixon against the reluctance of RCA ever to reissue the work of his they own. Or look at what Hat Art did for Braxton and others. Or the masses of Braxton and CT from Leo. As for european free music, there are more labels than you can count. Take a look at Emanem, Psi and Incus, if you want to know what a blistering programme of reissues plus masses of new work can look like. In the US maybe OKKA has recently done something similar and then only with substantial reference to European musics. Or, even, compare what ECM has done for US music among others - it gets sneered at here but they did fine by the AEC. I could go on but the question as far as jazz recording and reiussuing goes really should be issued from us to you - where the hell have you guys been? Try to keep up!

Edited April 17, 2011 by David Ayers