Fresh Sound: Jordi Pujol Interview

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Back in the late 80's & early 90's Pujol's Fresh Sound label issued quite a bit of stuff that was not 50 years old. How could the interviewer not being up *any* of them?? Just look at their discography. There are tons of small label stuff in there that was clearly under 50 years. Jubilee, Jamo, Roulette, etc. not to mention a whole bunch of live material. None of this stuff was legal.

I don't know why Pujol doesn't just fess up and admit that when the labels/artists failed to go after him, he kept going. Notice how he never really went after the big label stuff until after the 50 years went by? He knew what he was doing was illegal, even under Spanish/EU law.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kevin Bresnahan

[king ubu]

Because laws changed - just read the interview (or the posts above)!

Laws are not man's (small man, that is) best friend.

[JSngry]

Yeah, the big man gets all the friends...

[AllenLowe]

1) I don't think the product is inferior - I have had pretty good sound on nearly all my Fresh Sound and Lonehills.

2) I like the label and I'm glad they are doing what they are doing.

3) If I were Pujol, to make everybody happy, I would just pay the leaders or their estate a percentage royalty on sales. That seems to be the real sticking point here.

[JSngry]

You pay for this stuff? You got more disposable income than I do, about which all I can say is congratulations!

As for "quality" and "pretty good sound"...ever look at how much of it that does have that has been released by somebody else beforehand, already prettied up? And how much of it that doesn't hasn't been? See Ubu, earlier, again.

Serious question - do Public Domain laws compel things to be sold. or if something is truly, fully (i.e. - publishing as well as ownership of recording) , in the Public Domain, can it just be given away?

[Chuck Nessa]

"legality" is not "ethics".

[AllenLowe]

well, nobody else would have put out George Handy or the Fruscella Atlantics or the George Russell '50s stuff or Red Rodney from the '50s or Gil Evans' Claude Thornhill arrangements. And I don't think those original companies suffered from the reissues.

Edited November 10, 2011 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

well, nobody else would have put out George Handy or the Fruscella Atlantics or the George Russell '50s stuff or Red Rodney from the '50s or Gil Evans' Claude Thornhill arrangements. And I don't think those original companies suffered from the reissues.

Really, really don't want to be dragged into this discussion but the above statement(s) are not fact.

I do not plan to return to this thread, so please explain your statement.

[JSngry]

From Sony (Japan) http://jcalife.blog....ategory-32.html

From 1999: http://www.parisjazzcorner.com/en/dis_fiche.php?ArtNum=98877&LANGUE=uk

From 2004: http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/the_real_birth_of_cool_-_studio_recordings-cd-2228.html

Point being nothing more than "nobody else would have done it" is just not the case.

Edited November 10, 2011 by JSngry

[JSngry]

RCA 1987:

Koch 1998: http://www.allmusic.com/album/jazz-workshop-r146745

RCA 1988: http://www.discogs.com/Various-The-RCA-Victor-Jazz-Workshop-The-Arrangers/release/2659500

Lonehill 2005: http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/the_complete_bluebird_recordings-cd-3849.html

Point again being nothing more than it was already done before they "did" it.

[Larry Kart]

"legality" is not "ethics".

The plain and simple truth. Ask Joe Paterno (i.e. ask him now).

[david weiss]

I worked pretty closely with Jordi for a number of years. I recorded 4 CDs for him and produced another 10 or so for him.

I've spent plenty of time in his office in Barcelona and seen the "walls" of reel to reel tapes.

Knowing all of that still can't help me give you that much of a clearer picture about all this.

I know Jordi has legitimately acquired some labels (Nocturne) so some of his reissues are legit. Others he might have thought he acquired legally but did not (Vee Jay). Other things he did license legitimately.

Other things he certainly did not.

The live tapes is another issue. If I am to believe him, at the start he thought his buying the tapes from an estate or a club owner meant he legitimately owned them. Later on, he did ask me for the contact information for Cannonball's widow and Lee's widow because he said he wanted to pay them something. I'm pretty sure he never did.

I didn't know him during the vinyl era but most of those couldn't be legitimate. Pacific Jazz vinyl? No way.....

I want to also say that he is a real fan of the music and also had some real knowledge of the music. He also had a good ear and good instincts for talent though he did rely on a few people to help him in this area.

He was always a good host when I was in Spain so he could give the appearance of being a good guy, knowledgeable about the music and a great fan.

Business wise......well.....

The main conversation we had over the years was the just because it is legal there doesn't make it right talk. We had this conversation many times.

He also always swore the other fringe labels were not him (the Andorrans etc etc). He always claimed how can it be me, none of them have the attention to detail I have.

When one of them put out a Mingus CD that was a direct copy of that great Uptown set of his early stuff I told him that was pretty fucked up. It was on the Absolute web-site and he claimed they just distribute this stuff etc etc. I told him, this particular one was such a blatant breach and that if you are as honorable as you say, get that CD removed from the web-site. I told him it would be better for him as well, that he already had a bad reputation about this stuff and the presence of this CD on a web-site associated with him would just cement his horrible reputation. I can't honestly remember if he did anything about it or not.

In the end, we parted ways. I have not talked to him in at least 5 years or more. He did I guess what most would expect of someone of his ilk to do, he stopped paying me and still owes me money.

This interview didn't bother me that much but I have to admit that the reason I get pissed about stuff he says in print is a little more self-centered and has more to do with the New Talent stuff. He makes it sound like he discovered all the people he recorded and that sticks in my craw a little though I guess this is pretty typical and not so egregious though I am a bit of a credit where credit is due sort of guy.

[JETman]

Well said, David.

I met him at J&R. He came off as a common thug --- sort of like the "jazz mafioso".

[AllenLowe]

well, if we are talking about labels that don't pay, I was ripped off by one of the major independents that has a rep for clean and honest dealing - and every small publisher I have dealt with has failed to issue proper royalty statements, and these were "legit" concerns. So I really see little difference in business practices (ask the Dixie Chicks about this as well).

as for putting out the Evans/Thornhill, re-Jim's reponse to my prior, that's one out of three, and at least one of the releases he posted was not legit, anyway. The Japanese Sony probably costs $50 and I'm willing to bet the Evans and Thornhill estates see nothing.

Al Haig was reissued by US-based majors and never saw a penny (I called one of them up - it was a lable since purchased by Concord - they said "we can't find him." I said, "You're a little late, but here's his widow's address." They said, "we will contact her." She never heard a thing)

The happy days cast just sued for royalties on merchandise.

Another reissue label, beloved here, makes legit purchases of labels, then rips off anyone who does any work for them on the reissue (they owe me $300 from about 12 years ago).

Go through your collection. This stuff is as unavoidable as dog poop in the park.

Not saying this is all ok, but if we are going to look at the industry and only purchase from someone who is100 percent honest, than the only things we can buy are Nessa releases.

Edited November 10, 2011 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

I also traced the George Russell. which was a total rip of legitimately released product. If you allow for a needle drop of a clean OJC vinyl, you can otherwise find "legit" digital precursors for the Red Rodney release. The George Handy thing has that weird "RCA" logo on it, which is said to be legit, so maybe it is.

Point being, though - so very much of what they release can be traced back to somebody else's work. Which leads to the question (again) - why should we the consumer pay for needledrops and CD burns with no real value added? I know you do a lot of PD work, Allen, but you always add value, clean up the sound yourself, add a lot of historical perspective in your notes. You do PD the way it should be done.

But Fresh Sound, etc. all they can justify charging you for is "convenience". And hell, there's a lot more convenient ways to get needledrops and burns of other peoples' CDs than paying some Shady Grady outfit.

I'm less concerned with who they pay than I am with who I pay, and for what I get in return.

[AllenLowe]

I don't disagree with you and I do think the projects I do are different in that they are original compilations, though there are indeed some grey areas. For me it's a matter, often, of convenience (and I was thrilled to have those Handys in good sound). The truth is I am, like a lot of other people, conflicted, as I have dealt with legit majors and legit independents and found them to be equally indifferent in their business practices. And David Weiss' comments, above, struck a nerve (and hey, I dealt with the worlds largest goniff, the late Bernie Brightman; though I thought my deal was air tight - there was little money exchanged - he still managed to rip me off from the grave, but that's another story).

I still think if we went the purist route, our collections would pretty much disappear.

Edited November 10, 2011 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Yeah, but they're shrinking (in physical size) as it is...digital allows for that, digital encourages that, digital damn near mandates that, eventually.

So if all I'm getting is a needledrop or a digital xerox of somebody else's work...I don't feel much need to have a "physical copy" of that, especially not one that I pay for. Not now.

If, otoh, I can get value added to something I want by there being original, improved remastering, original detailed annotation, somthing that's not just a copy of a copy, then I got no problem springing for that. As I long as I have disposable income, it will be disposed!

We have options as end-users (note that I didn't say "consumers") now that we didn't have in the past. I think it behooves us to exercise them in the interest of raising the bar, not lowering it.

[AllenLowe]

of course, there's also all that stuff on Youtube - who's getting paid for that?

[David Ayers]

The Japanese Sony probably costs $50 and I'm willing to bet the Evans and Thornhill estates see nothing.

Japanese PD is 50 years so you can be 100% certain of that (um, though I didn't check the dates of the releases you mention).

BTW I don't know how licenses are sold in music but I do know that many times with books if a publisher sells a licence to another territory they do so for a flat rate and the author gets a percentage of that. In other words once goods are licensed abroad there is no author royalty. I suspect that music contracts of the period were like that. Add to that too that you can be 100% certain that the owners of many of the copyrights we are discussing (EMI/Sony-RCA/Universal/Warner) will certainly not pay royalties on their own Japanese/European PD reissues as none are due.

[mikeweil]

of course, there's also all that stuff on Youtube - who's getting paid for that?

Funny - that's what I thought a few days ago ...

[JSngry]

OTOH, who's paying to view it?