Jazzplus

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Calm down, lads. Be happy.

[J.A.W.]

Unnecessary confirmation of my post = search for validation = running up post count = waste of bandwidth = waste of time

Whatever

[king ubu]

yadda yadda yadda

[JSngry]

[Bluesnik]

I rather enjoyed the Selects. They worked for me in a lot of ways, sorry to hear of their demise. Reasonably sized/priced packages targeting a specific portion of work, hey. great idea, great product. Count me as a fan.

me too.

[J.A.W.]

I rather enjoyed the Selects. They worked for me in a lot of ways, sorry to hear of their demise. Reasonably sized/priced packages targeting a specific portion of work, hey. great idea, great product. Count me as a fan.

Agreed. That's more or less what I told Scott.

Last year I suggested Dave Bailey JazzLine/JazzTime/Epic and Chico Hamilton/Charles Lloyd/Gabor Szabo Reprise/impulse! Selects to them and MC replied they'd love to do those sets, but that licensing and the cost involved would probably be problematic. Well, we'll never see them now... Oh well.

Edited October 27, 2012 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

Also, I don't think the Pres/Basie 4CD box sold out so quickly just because it's Pres/Basie ... it's small, it's considerably cheaper than most.

Not sure why 7CD sets are economically most feasible when they time out after less than 3000 sold units and ten years, while a 4CD set is sold 5000 times within half the time. But I was never good in math and have not even basic understanding of economical stuff, so ... yep, shoot me

[J.A.W.]

Also, I don't think the Pres/Basie 4CD box sold out so quickly just because it's Pres/Basie ... it's small, it's considerably cheaper than most.

Not sure why 7CD sets are economically most feasible when they time out after less than 3000 sold units and ten years, while a 4CD set is sold 5000 times within half the time. But I was never good in math and have not even basic understanding of economical stuff, so ... yep, shoot me

It seems it's got something to do with the cost of licensing; the optimum seems to be a 7CD-set, I was told sets with fewer CDs cost more per CD and so do sets with more than 7 CDs. Also, licensing stuff from more than one rights owner for one set seems to be very costly.

Edited October 27, 2012 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

That makes sense - but my calculation still comes in in cases where they are able to sell off half or not even half of the planned edition, I think? Anyway, I don't doubt it, I'm just trying to understand!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Also, I don't think the Pres/Basie 4CD box sold out so quickly just because it's Pres/Basie ... it's small, it's considerably cheaper than most.

Not sure why 7CD sets are economically most feasible when they time out after less than 3000 sold units and ten years, while a 4CD set is sold 5000 times within half the time. But I was never good in math and have not even basic understanding of economical stuff, so ... yep, shoot me

I don't think everyone makes financial calculations when they're contemplating a Mosaic box. The reason I DIDN'T buy the Prez/Basie box was because it wasn't a 7 or even 9 CD set. It's hard to get with a music that you didn't grow up with; the American past is even more foreign to me than the American present. The way I find best is to get everything - the good, the dubious, the poor and the rubbish - for context. Unfortunately Mr Cuscuna seems to have objections to bad jazz, which I don't share.

MG

[JSngry]

But - if you're waiting for some bad Lester Young....there won't be any.

[Chuck Nessa]

Also, I don't think the Pres/Basie 4CD box sold out so quickly just because it's Pres/Basie ... it's small, it's considerably cheaper than most.

Not sure why 7CD sets are economically most feasible when they time out after less than 3000 sold units and ten years, while a 4CD set is sold 5000 times within half the time. But I was never good in math and have not even basic understanding of economical stuff, so ... yep, shoot me

It seems it's got something to do with the cost of licensing; the optimum seems to be a 7CD-set, I was told sets with fewer CDs cost more per CD and so do sets with more than 7 CDs. Also, licensing stuff from more than one rights owner for one set seems to be very costly.

Another factor making the larger sets more attractive is the cost of the packaging and booklets.

[king ubu]

Also, I don't think the Pres/Basie 4CD box sold out so quickly just because it's Pres/Basie ... it's small, it's considerably cheaper than most.

Not sure why 7CD sets are economically most feasible when they time out after less than 3000 sold units and ten years, while a 4CD set is sold 5000 times within half the time. But I was never good in math and have not even basic understanding of economical stuff, so ... yep, shoot me

It seems it's got something to do with the cost of licensing; the optimum seems to be a 7CD-set, I was told sets with fewer CDs cost more per CD and so do sets with more than 7 CDs. Also, licensing stuff from more than one rights owner for one set seems to be very costly.

Another factor making the larger sets more attractive is the cost of the packaging and booklets.

Obviously, yes! But still, what's the bottom line between 5000 Pres-sets sold within a few years and 2000 larger sets sold within twice as many years? (Storage room would be another consideration to take into account, I assume? Even if they only print a few hundred at the time, those need to be stored.)

[paul secor]

Mosaic has been around for over 25 years, so I would think that or would hope that they know what they're doing by now.

[Chuck Nessa]

Also, I don't think the Pres/Basie 4CD box sold out so quickly just because it's Pres/Basie ... it's small, it's considerably cheaper than most.

Not sure why 7CD sets are economically most feasible when they time out after less than 3000 sold units and ten years, while a 4CD set is sold 5000 times within half the time. But I was never good in math and have not even basic understanding of economical stuff, so ... yep, shoot me

It seems it's got something to do with the cost of licensing; the optimum seems to be a 7CD-set, I was told sets with fewer CDs cost more per CD and so do sets with more than 7 CDs. Also, licensing stuff from more than one rights owner for one set seems to be very costly.

Another factor making the larger sets more attractive is the cost of the packaging and booklets.

Obviously, yes! But still, what's the bottom line between 5000 Pres-sets sold within a few years and 2000 larger sets sold within twice as many years? (Storage room would be another consideration to take into account, I assume? Even if they only print a few hundred at the time, those need to be stored.)

They have to print in multiple thousands to be cost effective - they probably print enough for the entire run. The point I was making is a box for 7 cds costs the same as a box for 4 cds and this greatly impacts the per disc cost.

[felser]

Just wanted to take a minute to reflect on the miracle that the CD age was for us. The music that came back into print/availability is stuff that I never would have dreamed I would get to hear and own. While I have my own list of Mosaics I have always wanted to see (Bobby Hutcherson/Harold Land, Chico Hamilton/Charles Lloyd are the two that immediately come to mind), I'm thankful for what they and many other labels have put out for us. And the labels I'm thankful for include some that regularly take knocks, like Collectables. They put out a lot of Atlantic jazz (and a lot of non-jazz) that I may not have ever been able to come by otherwise. The most amazing to me was Fantasy in their heyday, putting out OJC-LE's of people I had never even heard of (John Dennis, for example), and others who I thought their music was gone forever (Prince Lasha and Jimmy Woods, for example). And that's even without starting another firestorm about our Andorran friends. Human nature being what it is, the CD I think most about is whatever happens to be the next one I want to get, but I never could have imagined I would be able to own what I have, let alone even more. And God bless Norah Jones's breakthrough album for bankrolling Blue Note to be able to re-release 90% of their classic catalog, in those many flavors (McMaster, Conn, RVG, Rare Grooves, etc).

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

But - if you're waiting for some bad Lester Young....there won't be any.

Don't doubt you for a second. It's the dubious or rubbishy Basies I want.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Just wanted to take a minute to reflect on the miracle that the CD age was for us. The music that came back into print/availability is stuff that I never would have dreamed I would get to hear and own. While I have my own list of Mosaics I have always wanted to see (Bobby Hutcherson/Harold Land, Chico Hamilton/Charles Lloyd are the two that immediately come to mind), I'm thankful for what they and many other labels have put out for us. And the labels I'm thankful for include some that regularly take knocks, like Collectables. They put out a lot of Atlantic jazz (and a lot of non-jazz) that I may not have ever been able to come by otherwise. The most amazing to me was Fantasy in their heyday, putting out OJC-LE's of people I had never even heard of (John Dennis, for example), and others who I thought their music was gone forever (Prince Lasha and Jimmy Woods, for example). And that's even without starting another firestorm about our Andorran friends. Human nature being what it is, the CD I think most about is whatever happens to be the next one I want to get, but I never could have imagined I would be able to own what I have, let alone even more. And God bless Norah Jones's breakthrough album for bankrolling Blue Note to be able to re-release 90% of their classic catalog, in those many flavors (McMaster, Conn, RVG, Rare Grooves, etc).

Good threadslide But I do agree with you. More on Fantasy's labels in my collection than any other company - and, as with you, a lot of it is stuff I'd never hoped to be able to get back in the day. Also about Collectables, even if they do have some strange twofers. Also the 'grey' firms like Lonehill. No matter how well the 'regular' companies have covered the field, they've wittingly or unwittingly left openings for those firms. I would definitely spring for a 3 CD set of Freddie McCoy's 7 Prestige albums, none of which have come out on CD.

Oh, that reminds me, I have everything Freddie McCoy ever recorded, as a leader and sideman.

MG

[felser]

Good threadslide

This was a thread that was started about new Universal twofers, and what I slid it away from was the demise of smaller Mosaic sets, so I don't feel guilty of introducing the threadslide!

[robertoart]

Just wanted to take a minute to reflect on the miracle that the CD age was for us. The music that came back into print/availability is stuff that I never would have dreamed I would get to hear and own. While I have my own list of Mosaics I have always wanted to see (Bobby Hutcherson/Harold Land, Chico Hamilton/Charles Lloyd are the two that immediately come to mind), I'm thankful for what they and many other labels have put out for us. And the labels I'm thankful for include some that regularly take knocks, like Collectables. They put out a lot of Atlantic jazz (and a lot of non-jazz) that I may not have ever been able to come by otherwise. The most amazing to me was Fantasy in their heyday, putting out OJC-LE's of people I had never even heard of (John Dennis, for example), and others who I thought their music was gone forever (Prince Lasha and Jimmy Woods, for example). And that's even without starting another firestorm about our Andorran friends. Human nature being what it is, the CD I think most about is whatever happens to be the next one I want to get, but I never could have imagined I would be able to own what I have, let alone even more. And God bless Norah Jones's breakthrough album for bankrolling Blue Note to be able to re-release 90% of their classic catalog, in those many flavors (McMaster, Conn, RVG, Rare Grooves, etc).

Yep. After about six years prior of -getting selected LP re-issues from BN and Pathe Marconi etc., and whatever rare original pressing lucky finds I came across in the used bins, and contemporary releases on Black Saint etc., it pretty much started for me around the time of the Mosaic Grant Green and Larry Young box sets. Then came (almost simultaneously the Japanese cd re-issues, and then a steady stream of almost everything I had ever hoped to hear. A glorious time of discovery for those of us who weren't there the first time around.

[Big Beat Steve]

Don't doubt you for a second. It's the dubious or rubbishy Basies I want.

There aren't any either. No rubbishy and not many dubious ones, that is (IMO ). And even those that are dubious are only marred by some over-sugary crooning vocals (signs of the times) or by some uncommonly pop-ish tunes sung by Jimmy Rushing. But these just reflected the musical scene of the day (Lunceford and Kirk had many more like this, and some early pop vocal ditties sung by Ella with Webb aren't always high points in artistic sophistication and achievement either ) and you are totally right in wanting these too in order to get the overall picture. They do have their charm and appeal, even today.

"Bad" or "rubbishy" is a highly subjective criterion anyway. By strict criteria of artistry and musicianship Bird's Lover Man session falls far, far short IMO, but knowing the context, would we consider it poor? It's a unique document in the artistic biography of the man. Or take Ernie Henry's LPs that strictly speaking are not exactly supreme masterpieces of musicianship either (listening to them, for once I'd believe contemporary reviewers who point out poor Ernie wasn't even nearly able to put into notes what he heard in his mind) yet they are acknolwedged by many today who evidently have other criteria.

To each his own ...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Don't doubt you for a second. It's the dubious or rubbishy Basies I want.

There aren't any either. No rubbishy and not many dubious ones, that is (IMO ). And even those that are dubious are only marred by some over-sugary crooning vocals (signs of the times) or by some uncommonly pop-ish tunes sung by Jimmy Rushing. But these just reflected the musical scene of the day (Lunceford and Kirk had many more like this, and some early pop vocal ditties sung by Ella with Webb aren't always high points in artistic sophistication and achievement either ) and you are totally right in wanting these too in order to get the overall picture. They do have their charm and appeal, even today.

"Bad" or "rubbishy" is a highly subjective criterion anyway. By strict criteria of artistry and musicianship Bird's Lover Man session falls far, far short IMO, but knowing the context, would we consider it poor? It's a unique document in the artistic biography of the man. Or take Ernie Henry's LPs that strictly speaking are not exactly supreme masterpieces of musicianship either (listening to them, for once I'd believe contemporary reviewers who point out poor Ernie wasn't even nearly able to put into notes what he heard in his mind) yet they are acknolwedged by many today who evidently have other criteria.

To each his own ...

Yes, I think I agree with all that, except Ernie Henry, whom I've never heard as a leader, and the 'Lover man' session, which I also haven't heard, but don't doubt you, on either. That's why I'm going to get the Lunceford and Webb boxes eventually.

MG

[JSngry]

The problems with Bird's "Lover Man" would likely not be noticed if the story wasn't already known. Not so much the rest of that session, but that one tune is quite cohesive, and that seems to be the one that everybody obsesses on (even Bird, who I guess felt the need for a do-over).

And Ernie Henry was slinky in the extreme, not sloppy or whatever, which not everybody gets. But everybody don't get something.

I'm pretty sure that at least a few Freddy McCoy Prestige sides have been out in Japan. And at least one of them is coming back! http://www.dustygroove.com/item.php?id=2mh4dkpg2y&ref=browse.php&refQ=kwfilter%3DFreddie%2BMcCoy%26amp%3Bx%3D14%26amp%3By%3D5%26amp%3Bincl_oos%3D1%26amp%3Bincl_cs%3D1

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The problems with Bird's "Lover Man" would likely not be noticed if the story wasn't already known. Not so much the rest of that session, but that one tune is quite cohesive, and that seems to be the one that everybody obsesses on (even Bird, who I guess felt the need for a do-over).

And Ernie Henry was slinky in the extreme, not sloppy or whatever, which not everybody gets. But everybody don't get something.

I'm pretty sure that at least a few Freddy McCoy Prestige sides have been out in Japan. And at least one of them is coming back! http://www.dustygroove.com/item.php?id=2mh4dkpg2y&ref=browse.php&refQ=kwfilter%3DFreddie%2BMcCoy%26amp%3Bx%3D14%26amp%3By%3D5%26amp%3Bincl_oos%3D1%26amp%3Bincl_cs%3D1

Never seen or heard of any of 'em on CD. I guess I'll spring for 'Spider man'. Thanks Jim.

MG

[David Ayers]

Also, I don't think the Pres/Basie 4CD box sold out so quickly just because it's Pres/Basie ... it's small, it's considerably cheaper than most.

Maybe they should have licensed more of the Young/Basie. That was a big success for them.