A Lark Ascending Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) 'Conservative' tends to have negative connotations (especially in Britain...can't wait for next week!). Music that does not embrace the relentless striving into the future, the breaking up of convention is often dismissed or marginalised (by critics) as 'conservative'. Now I'm all for forging into the future and challenging preconceptions but there have always been musicians not that interested in making a new world but able to speak with very individual voices in the language of the existing or even a previous world. I'm thinking of this after reading an article yesterday about the British composer David Matthews. Matthews writes in a tonal language a million miles away from much avant garde classical music, yet it's music that is unique and (to me) very engaging. It's not easy listening either, though it can be very atmospheric. Another example: listening through the Henze box in recent weeks, a lot of the music there could be termed 'conservative' compared with his peers - but the term doesn't even begin to prepare you for his quite unique way with music. So, can anyone think of a less value-laden term than conservative to describe music or musicians of great imagination who choose not to storm the frontiers but work overtly within an existing tradition? Edited September 22, 2013 by A Lark Ascending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Masterful practitioners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Traditional? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Mainstream could be used this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Yes, that sounds reasonable. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillF Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Labour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Labour Ho! Ho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillF Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Sidewinder must be on holiday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Traditional? Not really. I tend to think of traditional as sticking very firmly to all the approaches of a past style - might be a New Orleans band or a hard bop group that chooses to play completely within the style. I'm thinking more of musicians who might choose to perform with a traditional harmonic framework yet still assemble the parts very differently. Someone like Malcolm Arnold worked with the 'traditional' harmonic approaches and structures (symphony, concerto, sonata etc) yet produced music that is very much of the mid-to-late 20thC and unlike anyone else's. He might have used the same building blocks but put them together in a unique way. Musicians of that type tend to get the word 'conservative' used as a negative because they don't care for (or don't care to use) more radical departures from the norm. Groundbreakers they may not be; but I think 'conservative' undervalues the distinctiveness of what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Pleasing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Cautious? Mindful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Looks like we'll be better off sticking with 'conservative' (!!!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (especially in Britain...can't wait for next week!). snooze-fest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 It's like when you say "I'm sorry" when something bad has happened to someone. There is no convenient word/phrase for expressing empathy that does not include the unintended guilt connotation that comes with "I'm sorry." JSngry's suggestion is good. "Masterful exponent of ____" "rooted (or grounded) in the tradition of..." might be another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 People who play as you describe are practicing a craft. As with all crafts, it is no small feat to stay within well-worn and/or clearly defined boundaries and still deliver a distinctively personal outcome to the proceedings. That takes a strong sense of self as well as an equally strong mastery of craft, because craft is almost by definition designed to create predictable results, so, finding the cracks into which to put something distinct/personal is no small feat. I like the phrase "master craftsman" for such people, but people tend to look down on craft these days, like mastering a craft based on known materials instead of on blowing it all up and putting it back together is some form of "settling". Bullshit! Ain't what you do, etc... What I have no use for are the strict re-creators, the ones whose goal it is to simply play well and play exact and play familiarly in every aspect,. No, that's craft without imagination. I asked for a window and I get a mirror. Boo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 In my experience, artists have a hard time differentiating between art and craft in their own work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) That distinguishes master-craftsmen from imitators (though we could argue from here to eternity as to who fits in which category). But aren't many revolutionaries who focus on the new over the old also master craftsmen. Evan Parker strikes me as a master craftsman. I like the idea of 'rooted in tradition' (Froots folk/world magazine [with an editorial policy with no time for nostalgia - very much encouraging innovation in 'traditional' music], cleverly talks about music rooted in 'a' tradition) but again most revolutionaries might emphasise their radicalism but will often also celebrate where they came from. I know it's only words. It's just the lazy use of the word 'conservative' to dismiss some musicians that I think is unfortunate. Edited September 22, 2013 by A Lark Ascending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Maybe a good term could be "Artisanal"... Meanwhile, I'm glad to see that "conservative" music itself isn't being whacked around. Raymond Chandler, in a novel's preface said "Only a hack tries to break the mold. A true poet tries to go as big as you can within the fold..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) There's a line attributed to Arnold Schoenberg along the lines of 'There's still a lot of good music to be written in C Major'. It would be nice to think he said that but I'm not sure it's been validated. Might be what someone would have liked him to say. Maybe a good term could be "Artisanal"... More appropriate for the world of H.I.P. (the artist formally known as period performance) classical music!!!! (can I emphasise I am jesting here!) Edited September 22, 2013 by A Lark Ascending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Source for Schoenberg's C Major quote. Dika Newlin was there, I believe: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/832371?uid=3739656&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102678488113 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Another example: listening through the Henze box in recent weeks, a lot of the music there could be termed 'conservative' compared with his peers - but the term doesn't even begin to prepare you for his quite unique way with music. Hans Werner Henze? The big DG box (with something like 14 discs - mostly white spines, with (literally) a rainbow of colo(u)rs as an accent at the top of the spine). Henze? Conservative? Pardon my French, but WTF?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Another example: listening through the Henze box in recent weeks, a lot of the music there could be termed 'conservative' compared with his peers - but the term doesn't even begin to prepare you for his quite unique way with music. Hans Werner Henze? The big DG box (with something like 14 discs - mostly white spines, with (literally) a rainbow of colo(u)rs as an accent at the top of the spine). Henze? Conservative? Pardon my French, but WTF?? By comparison with his avant garde contemporaries. He moved away from the radicalism of his former fellow radicals. And was seen as a reactionary by some (I recall reading that there was a walk out from one of his pieces by the great and the good of serialism). Of course his political enthusiasms could not be considered conservative; but I was thinking musically and with specific reference to his more radical contemporaries. Of course there's huge variation in his music (or that which I've so far heard) - something like 'Undine' would be unlikely to scare many horses. But the point you make illustrates why I find the use of 'conservative' unhelpful. Henze's 'conservatism' is only relative to the radical avant gardistas. It tells us nothing about the quality of his music in relation to them or anyone else. Edited September 22, 2013 by A Lark Ascending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Litweiler Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 too bad we apply the political connotations of "conservative" to every other use of the word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 too bad we apply the political connotations of "conservative" to every other use of the word and vice versa... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 I would same the same for the word "Liberal". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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