Oscar Peterson album for those who don't like much OP

[AllenLowe]

ok; I can live with that; I was just trying to explain why I, personally, do have trouble remaining silent when his name comes up.

[mjzee]

Somebody mentioned OP being omni-present (or quasi-present).  That is certainly true.  So here is my final question. If OP is such a bad accompanist, why was he found so often backing Stan Getz, Benny Carter, Ben Webster, Clark Terry, Roy Eldridge (and the list could go on an on)? 

 

But those were all Norman Granz-produced dates, no?  Not sure how much say Getz, Carter, etc., had in picking the sidemen on those recording dates.  I remember reading the notes to a Verve Billie Holiday twofer (Strange Fruit) that she truly disliked a session led by Tony Scott; the implication being she had no say in the backup.

[king ubu]

Maybe someone should re-record new piano parts for all those rekkids OP spoilt?

 

So, let's have a poll:

a) Liberace

b) André Previn (hey, he's still alive)

c) Harry S. - yup this dude:

d) Gene Harris

e) Lang Lang

f) you (which will be of course much cheaper, but not sure that'll entail better

results)

so, we'll drink to that before opening the ballots - here's the soundtrack to it:

 

Edited September 5, 2015 by king ubu
crappy typing

[JSngry]

Somebody mentioned OP being omni-present (or quasi-present).  That is certainly true.  So here is my final question. If OP is such a bad accompanist, why was he found so often backing Stan Getz, Benny Carter, Ben Webster, Clark Terry, Roy Eldridge (and the list could go on an on)? 

 

But those were all Norman Granz-produced dates, no?  Not sure how much say Getz, Carter, etc., had in picking the sidemen on those recording dates.  I remember reading the notes to a Verve Billie Holiday twofer (Strange Fruit) that she truly disliked a session led by Tony Scott; the implication being she had no say in the backup.

You can look at both Verve & Pablo and see that Granz had his "stable" It was useful in breeding a brand identity for records, and when the JATP tours went out, hey, same people as on the records.

One thing he did on Pablo taht he didn't do on Verve, though, was to use Basie on small group sides. Possibly a logistical consideration, but still, a lost opportunity, I think. Imagine a Billie side with Lester, Ben, Sweets, and Basie.

Either way, there are plenty of exceptions, but there's also an obvious correlation between recording for Granz' label and "going to work" for Norman Granz. Nothing bad about that, far from it. It's just that it seems obvious to me who the "boss" was. Remember- Duke left Granz becuase he felt that too much control was being asked. So, it was what it was.

 

[AllenLowe]

we should mention, in the interest of full disclosure, that Bill Evans loved OP's playing.

[duaneiac]

As some one who has a mostly favorable view towards OP, I still have can't believe  that he would have been any vocalist's first choice as an accompanist -- not in a world in which Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Jimmy Rowles. Ellis Larkins, Teddy Wilson, Dick Hyman and so many others still existed.  Yet there OP was, courtesy of Norman Granz, backing up (or shoving aside, depending on your view) such singers as Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Anita O'Day and Bill Henderson (and maybe some others I've forgotten.  Blossom Dearie was fortunate that she accompanied herself or I'm sure she would have been backed by Op as well.

I can fully understand some one who does not like OP's playing resenting his presence on an otherwise good recording by say Coleman Hawkins, Roy Eldridge, Benny Carter, or whoever else.  I'm guessing that one reason Mr. Granz used him so frequently in the recording studio is that he knew exactly what to expect from him (heck, we ALL know exactly what to expect from him).  Since Mr. Granz was not one to waste studio time and since he liked to get most of his recordings done with the bare minimum of rehearsal and in as few takes as possible, he probably felt some confidence in having the reliability of OP (and the entire rhythm section on those recordings where Ray Brown and Herb Ellis and sometimes Louis Bellson were involved) at hand.  I can imagine, especially when he was working with performers such as Lester Young, Billie Holiday, Anita O'Day and Charlie Parker whose personal and performing lives could be somewhat unpredictable, Mr. Granz really wanted/appreciated the dependability of OP in the studio as one less thing to worry about.

[JSngry]

He was definitely a consummate professional, never any doubt or dispute about that.

One thing Granz liked was predictability. I think his overall output points to this in a pretty much incontestable manner. Another thing he liked was his notion of quality, which Peterson certainly provided.

One thing I've never really figured out, though, was his relationship with Bird. I mean, he put Bird in damn near every conceivable situation, but other than the one Jam Session record and the JATP live shows, he never used Bird as one of his "stable" players. I have to wond4er, was that because of Bird's persoanl habits, was it something musical, did Bird tell him, no, I'll do these other things, but not that, just what was it exactly?

On a related note, Granz seemed to, in general, keep his more bop/modern-oriented players apart from his JATP staples. Obvious exception, Stan Getz...it's interesting to look at how Granz moved his pieces around, the moves he didn't make maybe more interesting than the moves his did make.

[Milestones]

My question: Why is it that OP played with a huge number of great players, though mostly from a certain generation (or in some case those with a fairly retro approach).  Many great jazz players found OP anything but offensive.  

And as John says, if you don't like, then don't listen.

... Somehow I missed reading several posts.  It's an interesting notion--that Granz wanted predictability.  There could be something to that.  

Edited September 5, 2015 by Milestones

[JSngry]

Sorry, but "if you don't like it, then don't listen" is not a realistic approach for anybody who does listening /studying on anything other than a recreational basis.

Granz liked predictability, pretty sure that's the case. Hell, most people like predictability, it's just a matter of degree. When I turn the spigot, I want water to come out. When it doesn't, it's a problem. When I hire a drummer, I expect him to show up and play the tunes that are called. If he doesn't that's a problem. But if he plays all the same things on every gig, then I get to decide if that is too much predictability for me and/or if the predictability is of a comforting or an irritating nature. That's really all it is, how much of what kind of predictability are you as an individual comfortable with.

People who don't like ANY kind of predictability usually end up being locked up, either for their own protection, or for the protection of others. And people who insist on All Predictable All The Time risk getting to the same point. But in between, it's all different, but it's also all good.

[Milestones]

This thread has led me to go back and listen to many OP dates in my collection, Consider the Ben Webster meets Oscar Peterson record. I hardly think this meeting came about because Granz sought convenience and predictability.   For those who dislike OP, just listen.  He is almost entirely unobtrusive in accompaniment, and his solos are quite subtle. 

[mjzee]

Re predictability: It's been said that that's why Art Taylor was on so many sessions.  He showed up!

Re OP and singers: One big exception is the Verve Fred Astaire album.  True beauty.

[king ubu]

"Anita Sings the Most" is amazing - and of course, Peterson plays the most ... but it works just fine.

[AllenLowe]

well, I didn't want to say anything, but many years ago I was kidnapped, tied to a chair, and forced to listen to West Side Story as played by O.P.

 

[JSngry]

In all fairness, I'd blame West Side Story itself as much as anything. The only "jazz version of" that one I've heard that down's really fall down of its own accord is Manny Albam's, and that has as much to do with the remarkable transparency of the recording which reveals the remarkable ensemble blend of the ensemble as it does anything. Oh, Bill Barron's as well. But that one's slight just because they made it so.

[Ted O'Reilly]

The only "jazz version of" that one I've heard that down's really fall down of its own accord is Manny Albam's, and that has as much to do with the remarkable transparency of the recording which reveals the remarkable ensemble blend of the ensemble as it does anything. Oh, Bill Barron's as well. But that one's slight just because they made it so.

Sorry, I really don't understand this.  Should I read "doesn't really fall down"?  And that the reason you like it is that it's well-recorded?  ...and Barron's is good because they didn't aim to make it good, just tossed it off -- took the money and ran? (Can't believe that of him.)

Really, just need clarification, not being argumentative.

[JSngry]

Sorry if not clearly spoken, probably wasn't.

Comes down to this - I find West Side story to he a pretty heavy, bulky piece of score anyways, all those deliberately angsty tritones...not a really "light" score to begin with, nor particularly "tuneful...

Just saying that the "jazz versions of WSS" I've heard just don't work, for me because of the songs themselves, they work in the context of the show, but outside of their native settings...not so much.

'the big exemption for me is the Manny Albam record of the WSS songs. Albam's scores expertly stretch the instrumentation to a point where they can maintain their own orchestration's natural density and at the same time sustain the weight (at times, ponderous weight) of the songs. It's not a well-known record afaik, but it's worth checking out. It's a medium sized ensemble exquisitely record and uber-expertly played. you can hear the stress points in the music in the instrumentation and you can hear the sensibility as well, how the players all play their part into the overall fabric so that the overall fabric will be stronger than the sum of its parts. It's really a delightfully expert record in every regard. The inner parts reach up, down, and around the lead and bottom parts, and the top and bottom parts offer them perfect landing spots.

That's all getting kind of flighty, so just let it suffice that if you want to hear an amazingly aware ensemble playing in top ensemble form, with recording that captures every aspect of that ensemble's doings, then that is one to get.

The Bill Barron thing, hey, they set out to make a doctor's office record of WSS jazzykindamusic, and the succeeded quite well.

Other than that, though West Side Story and ""jazz" have not gotten along, at least not in a way that I've found inviting and/or pleasurable.

[Larry Kart]

Sorry if not clearly spoken, probably wasn't.

Comes down to this - I find West Side story to he a pretty heavy, bulky piece of score anyways, all those deliberately angsty tritones...not a really "light" score to begin with, nor particularly "tuneful...

Just saying that the "jazz versions of WSS" I've heard just don't work, for me because of the songs themselves, they work in the context of the show, but outside of their native settings...not so much.

'the big exemption for me is the Manny Albam record of the WSS songs. Albam's scores expertly stretch the instrumentation to a point where they can maintain their own orchestration's natural density and at the same time sustain the weight (at times, ponderous weight) of the songs. It's not a well-known record afaik, but it's worth checking out. It's a medium sized ensemble exquisitely record and uber-expertly played. you can hear the stress points in the music in the instrumentation and you can hear the sensibility as well, how the players all play their part into the overall fabric so that the overall fabric will be stronger than the sum of its parts. It's really a delightfully expert record in every regard. The inner parts reach up, down, and around the lead and bottom parts, and the top and bottom parts offer them perfect landing spots.

That's all getting kind of flighty, so just let it suffice that if you want to hear an amazingly aware ensemble playing in top ensemble form, with recording that captures every aspect of that ensemble's doings, then that is one to get.

The Bill Barron thing, hey, they set out to make a doctor's office record of WSS jazzykindamusic, and the succeeded quite well.

Other than that, though West Side Story and ""jazz" have not gotten along, at least not in a way that I've found inviting and/or pleasurable.

Haven't listened to it in a while, but I recall that that  the Albam WSS album is just as you describe it. In addition to uber-excellent playing by the Charlie's Tavern ensemble, there is IIRC some  passionate solo work. Also, IIRC and FWIW, L. Bernstein dug the record. Scoring wise, it's a jazz album but not a jazzed-up album; for this Manny Albam deserves much credit.

[JSngry]

It's a Gene Quill Opportunity as well, which means more to others than it does to be, but still, mention should be made.

What really wowed me the last time I listened to it, though, was the scoring and its execution and its recording. As you say, not at all "jazzed up", and exquisitely executed in every regard.

[Larry Kart]

Speaking of a Gene Quill Opportunity, dig this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D93UFJJZ2oU

The trombone solos/exchanges (Cleveland, Rehak, Jin Dahl) are pretty impressive too. 

The trombones and Quill made a good album together, "Thee Bones and a Quill."

[Guy Berger]

This thread has led me to go back and listen to many OP dates in my collection, Consider the Ben Webster meets Oscar Peterson record. I hardly think this meeting came about because Granz sought convenience and predictability.   For those who dislike OP, just listen.  He is almost entirely unobtrusive in accompaniment, and his solos are quite subtle. 

This thread has led me to go back and listen to many OP dates in my collection, Consider the Ben Webster meets Oscar Peterson record. I hardly think this meeting came about because Granz sought convenience and predictability.   For those who dislike OP, just listen.  He is almost entirely unobtrusive in accompaniment, and his solos are quite subtle. 

Well, there's an extremely good chance it came about precisely because Granz sought convenience and predictability.  BUT... I really like OP's playing on this date, and I'm someone whose general opinion on his body of work is mixed. 

[Ted O'Reilly]

 

....the big exemption for me is the Manny Albam record of the WSS songs.....

... if you want to hear an amazingly aware ensemble playing in top ensemble form, with recording that captures every aspect of that ensemble's doings, then that is one to get....

 

Took your advice, and found it on Spanish CD (along with "Steve's Songs" -- gotta be Steve Allen), but it'll take the best part of a month to cross the Atlantic, so you're just going to have to be patient to see if I agree...

[JSngry]

Here's Eddie Costa & Quill (on clarinet) on "Maria"...but the real meat for me is the writing. Of course, YouTube video is never anything but a muddied inference of the real thing, but still, you can hear that the inner voices are really working some magic. Writing is half the game, executing the parts to make everything speak like this is the other, and for my money,, hey aces on all counts here.

[AllenLowe]

that's Manny Albam? that's a beauty; usually he sounds sorta generic to me.

[JSngry]

I know, right?

[xybert]

I'm not all that familiar with the Music of West Side Story, but i quite liked this album:

Haven't listened to the whole album in a while but i still spin Maria every now and again. Would be keen to hear what you guys think of this version, postive/negative/ambivalent/whatever.

 

Edited September 6, 2015 by xybert