Swing Bands: Who should I listen to next?

[Captain Howdy]

I've heard the Duke, the Count, Benny, and Artie. I've heard or am currently listening to Tommy Dorsey, Harry James, Gene Krupa, Erskine Hawkins, and Chick Webb. What other big bands from the 1935-1945 period do I need to hear?

[lipi]

Ooooh, baby! I'm glad you asked! (Aside: you might enjoy this month's BFT. It's mostly smaller groups from that era.)

It depends on what you mean by "big band": how many brass and reeds satisfy you? The number steadily increased from 2 trumpets, 1 trombone, 1 reed (King Oliver) to 5 trumpets, 4 trombones, and 5 reeds (the late forties stuff). It also depends on what you mean by "need to hear." What was popular? What was seminal? What was/is great for dancing?

The first thing I'd say is: you haven't heard enough Duke.  Go listen to some more! And then listen to all the things under his sidemen's names. For the period you mention, Basie is as important as Duke, so listen to all of him, too.

All that said...

From the era you mention, and in the traditional Big Band mould:

• Charlie Barnet ("the blackest of the white bands"; a great admirer of Ellington's, which you can easily hear)
• Cab Calloway (he had quite a good band for a while, with Chu Berry, Milt Hinton, Cozy Cole, and famously a young Dizzy)
• The Casa Loma Orchestra/Glen Gray
• Lionel Hampton
• Andy Kirk (Mary Lou Williams is seminal)
• Jimmie Lunceford (to get the true experience, you have to see the band; we have one soundie and I think part of another performance; will insert the soundie below)
• Glenn Miller (perhaps a surprising recommendation; I suggest the album "The Spirit is Willing" on RCA to hear the non-schmaltzy stuff)
• Lucky Millinder (together with Hampton crucial if you want to understand where Jump Blues and later Rhythm & Blues/Rock & Roll came from)

Those are a good place to start, at least.

To understand where all these guys came from, the twenties and early thirties are important. If you want to dig there, I suggest:

• Bennie Moten (to understand where Basie came from)
• Fletcher Henderson (to understand where Goodman and Webb came from, and, well, everyone, really)
• King Oliver (to understand where Louis came from)
• Luis Russell (which became the Louis Armstrong Orchestra when Louis joined)
• Blanche Calloway (Cab's older sister; arguably the musically more talented, and a big influence on her brother; recorded very little; you want the 1930s recordings)
• Frank Trumbauer (for all the obvious reasons: Bix, Teagarden, and Tram himself)

Historically extremely interesting, but woefully under-recorded: the all-female bands of the 1930's and 1940's. These two are good places to start (and relatively easy to find recordings of):

• Ina Ray Hutton and Her Melodears
• The International Sweethearts of Rhythm

Especially in the 1940's there were a bunch of all-female orchestras due to the draft. Sherrie Tucker's book "Swing Shift" is good if you want to learn more.

Not mentioned above, because, you gotta stop somewhere: Benny Carter, Woody Herman, Earl Hines, Billy Eckstine, Bob Crosby, Les Brown, Larry Clinton, Claude Thornhill, Buddy Rich, Ray McKinley, Red Norvo, Fess Williams (the first house band at the Savoy Ballroom), Jan Savitt, Dizzy Gillespie, Jean Goldkette, ...

If you want specific recommendations for some of these, I'm sure we can collectively suggest some.

[Big Beat Steve]

Which style of bands are you more inclined towards?

Is it a matter of "historical listening", i.e. listening to all varieties to cover the field in full (as a matter of "essential educational" listening), or do you already have preferences from what you so far have listened to?

Bands like Basie or the Duke are musts, but Tommy Dorsey (or Harry James) on the one hand and Erskine Hawkins on the other already point in different directions unless you are a "devour-it-all" type.

 

Some of my personal perennial favorites:

Earl Hines

Lionel Hampton

Jimmie Lunceford (minus many of its male vocals, though)

Andy Kirk

Lucky Millinder

Fletcher Henderson's later work

Benny Carter

Cab Calloway

Don Redman

Woody Herman (including his post-war Herds, of course but that goes beyond your time frame)

Charlie Barnet

Jimmy Dorsey

Jan Savitt

Tony Pastor

and then ...

Will Bradley-Ray McKinley (McKinley's own band is mostly beyond your time frame)

early Les Brown

Hal McIntyre

Hudson-De Lange (I kid you not!)

plus some relatively short-lived big bands such as

Teddy Wilson

Jack Teagarden

Muggsy Spanier

and honestly, if I'd want some Glenn Miller sounds, I'd often rather listen to Bob Chester than Glenn Miller (his style is not all that different but his tunes haven't been played to death yet )

These are the ones I'd think of first ...

 

P.S: I'd VERY MUCH second the recommendations of the International Sweethearts of Rhythm and of Ina Ray Hutton made by Lipi above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Big Beat Steve

[JohnS]

I'm not a big band man but as well as Lunceford you might like to give Erskine Hawkins a go.  

[Captain Howdy]

>>Is it a matter of "historical listening", i.e. listening to all varieties to cover the field in full (as a matter of "essential educational" listening), or do you already have preferences from what you so far have listened to?

Yes, "essential education" is a good way to put it. I have formed preferences but they shouldn't really influence your recommendations at this point. Benny is my favorite but I like Duke, the Count, Artie, and Erskine Hawkins. Tommy Dorsey has too many corny vocals and yet I enjoy listening to him, at least once. I didn't like Harry James. I generally don't like vocals. 

>>It depends on what you mean by "big band": how many brass and reeds satisfy you? 

I can't make any rules. It depends on the band and the music. If it's good it's good.

>>It also depends on what you mean by "need to hear."

"essential education"

>>To understand where all these guys came from, the twenties and early thirties are important.

I don't dig that style. I might get there eventually, but not today.

>>Cab Calloway
>>Lucky Millinder

I don't like Cab's vocals but I have heard the Millinder band. 

5 minutes ago, JohnS said:

I'm not a big band man but as well as Lunceford you might like to give Erskine Hawkins a go.  

Yes, I have heard Erskine Hawkins and quite enjoyed it, except for some of the early vocals.

[Berthold]

not to forget these one´s:

- Louis Armstrong

- Chick Webb

- Eddie Condon 

- Henry Red Allen

- Boyd Raeburn

[Guy Berger]

Love this thread.  Thank you.

[Brad]

I guess the question is how much do you want to immerse yourself?

[duaneiac]

A couple of recommendations:

And if you are looking for essential education, this 4 CD Smithsonian set could be quite useful

[AllenLowe]

just to mention, my collection That Devilin' Tune, 4 volumes of 9 cds each, is probably the most comprehensive you will find in one place with a variety of bands like these, small and large groups. .

[ghost of miles]

Lots of great recs already, I'm pretty much echoing what's already been said--in addition to the heavyweights you mention at the beginning of your post:

Jimmie Lunceford

Glenn Miller Army Air Force Band (and yes to that The Spirit Is Willing civilian-band rec, an excellent compilation)

Chick Webb (Hep has a couple of CDs that are mostly or all instrumentals, minus the Ella vocals, since you say you don't generally care for vocals)

Don Redman

Fletcher Henderson

[lipi]

We're getting into repeating ourselves an awful lot, but let me quickly mention that Cab had *plenty* of instrumentals. You don't have to listen to his vocals. JSP has two cheap sets with most of his output, and Mosaic has some of the stuff on the Chu Berry set.

Just listen to this amazing thing ("A Minor Breakdown," 1937 take 2, Cab Calloway and His Orchestra):

 

Also, Allen's "Devilin' Tune" is indeed a great introduction.

And however much I love Eddie Condon and the rest of the Chicago gang, calling any of Condon's recordings Big Band Swing seems stretching the genre beyond its sensible limits.

Finally, if we're getting into the Stan Kenton's, Raymond Scott's, and Boyd Raeburn's of the world, we can go on for several hours (and possibly flame war each other about what is Swing and what is not). I'd shy away from these for now, not because they're bad (they're not), but because they're not that close to the music Captain Howdy originally mentioned.

Another approach: pick up one of the books by George T. Simon and just go down the list.

[Teasing the Korean]

The packaging on so many big band CDs and LPs scares me away.

[lipi]

26 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

The packaging on so many big band CDs and LPs scares me away.

Not enough women with big hats?

[JSngry]

 

 

[JSngry]

 

 

 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, lipi said:

Not enough women with big hats?

No they are just not era-appropriate.  They look like they are packaged for old men, which I guess at least some of us are now.  And they look like they are done by a kid who just got Photoshop. 

I would prefer that they look like these:

http://illustrationchronicles.com/Alex-Steinweiss-and-the-World-s-First-Record-Cover

Edited May 17, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

hell yeah, Alphonso Trent, hell yeah.

 

[lipi]

Yeaaaaah, Alphonse Trent!

How about a little Mills Blue Rhythm?

 

[gmonahan]

I had been listening to the bands for a while (this was many years ago) when I discovered Fletcher Henderson's mid-30s band that recorded for Decca. It swung like crazy and mostly recorded instrumentals. Try this one:

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by gmonahan

[Big Beat Steve]

13 hours ago, lipi said:

We're getting into repeating ourselves an awful lot, but let me quickly mention that Cab had *plenty* of instrumentals. You don't have to listen to his vocals. JSP has two cheap sets with most of his output, and Mosaic has some of the stuff on the Chu Berry set.

The inevitable fate of a recommendation thread like this where eventually every band imaginable will get mentioned.

And yes - Calloway's instrumentals are worth close listening, and still there are vocals that have a groove of its own that goes beyond the Hi-De-HI stuff that Captain howdy may have become tired of.

And lest I forget:

@Captain Howdy: As you say you like the Erskine Hawkins Orchestra and have checked out Lucky Millinder, then by all means do check out the Buddy Johnson Orchestra too. His Decca recordings fit your time frame (his Mercury recordings not quite so, and they got their share of pop-ish vocals too).

 

Quote

 

And however much I love Eddie Condon and the rest of the Chicago gang, calling any of Condon's recordings Big Band Swing seems stretching the genre beyond its sensible limits.

Finally, if we're getting into the Stan Kenton's, Raymond Scott's, and Boyd Raeburn's of the world, we can go on for several hours (and possibly flame war each other about what is Swing and what is not). I'd shy away from these for now, not because they're bad (they're not), but because they're not that close to the music Captain Howdy originally mentioned.

Another approach: pick up one of the books by George T. Simon and just go down the list.

I felt about the same when i saw Eddie Condon mentioned here. Wasn't he - by his very own insistence - the exact opposite of what big band jazz was all about?  SMALL band jazz from the 1935-45 period would fill more than one recommendation topic but the way I understood Captain Howdy here we are talking BIG bands.

As for the "Progressive" bands mentioned, IMHO they largely fall outside the time frame indicated by Captain Howdy. Though early 40s Stan Kenton has something going for him and fits the time frame. I'd recommend his early 40s transcriptions released on the Hindsight label (not sure if they are from the same source that the MacGregor transcription CD recommended above comes from).

For the same reason - time frame - and Captain Howdy's statement that he is not into very early pre-Swing era big band jazz (yet) such as Luis Russell IMHO rules out earlier bands such Alphonso Trent etc. (for the time being).

About George T. SImon, his "The Big Bands" book taught me a lot in my early collecting days and made me aware of many second-tier big bands (Hal McIntyre, Sonny Dunham, Teddy Powell, Claude Hopkins, Jan Savitt, etc.) that are quite worth exploring. Even today it is a useful reference tool. As for "just going down the list", how about the books by Leo Walker, Albert McCarthy and Gene Fernett to do some more list checking? And of course "The Swing Era" by Gunther Schuller.

11 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

No they are just not era-appropriate.  They look like they are packaged for old men, which I guess at least some of us are now.  And they look like they are done by a kid who just got Photoshop. 

I would prefer that they look like these:

http://illustrationchronicles.com/Alex-Steinweiss-and-the-World-s-First-Record-Cover

Agreed 100%. I'd much prefer some more era-appropriate too. One may or may not like their style but the RCA Bluebird twofers from the 70s did do a bit better in that sense IMO.

To me the typical reissues (CDs, in particular) don't look like they are packaged for old men but rather like they are packaged cheaply for casual buyers and were made so that some moderately imaginative "artwork" hired hand lurking about the record label offices could grab a quickie job.

Some CD reissuers do show at least some awareness of graphical details and typefaces of the era, though. Two examples quickly retrieved from my CDs:

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Big Beat Steve

[Brad]

As Big Beat Steve noted:

"The inevitable fate of a recommendation thread like this where eventually every band imaginable will get mentioned."

So many suggestions are noted that the information, although proferred in the desire to help, becomes useless. Sensory overload. It's comparable to searching the web for something and getting umpteen thousand hits, none of which answer the question. It's hand throwing up time. 

[JSngry]

Nothing rules out Alphonsoe Trent. Nothing is strong enough to get that done.

[Big Beat Steve]

@ Brad: Well, at least I TRIED to structure my suggestions somewhat: "If you are interested in A, then search out B and C. They might offer you more in the same vein (with some variations)."

I think sticking to the kind of band (which in this case to a large extent means style of band) - i.e. big band - and time frame (1935-45) as requested by Captain Howdy, still keeps the suggestions up to this point to a manageable spectrum of bands (for those interesteding in really cutting their teeth into the musical fare, anyway )

 

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Nothing rules out Alphonsoe Trent. Nothing is strong enough to get that done.

Of course there is.

The Captain's preferences:

"the twenties and early thirties are important.
I don't dig that style. I might get there eventually, but not today."

It's he who decides. and I'd respect this. No use forcing things onto anybody. It may be his loss now but there's nothing wrong with EASING your way into exploring the music.
Everything else will come later ("for those who thus desire"- to quote a tune title from ANOTHER field of jazz )

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

42 minutes ago, Brad said:

As Big Beat Steve noted:

"The inevitable fate of a recommendation thread like this where eventually every band imaginable will get mentioned."

So many suggestions are noted that the information, although proferred in the desire to help, becomes useless. Sensory overload. It's comparable to searching the web for something and getting umpteen thousand hits, none of which answer the question. It's hand throwing up time. 

Dude, you're talking about several decades worth of music made in a time where every city, town, hamlet, burg, and intersection had bands because that's all there was. Of course there's a lot of names. And you're not going to learn about them all at once, that's impossible, I mean, what, you're going to learn about decades worth of musics made by literally thousands of individuals in one quick easy step? That's not good physics, redo the equation, please!

4 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Of course there is.

The Captain's preferences:

"the twenties and early thirties are important.
I don't dig that style. I might get there eventually, but not today."

It's he who decides. and I'd respect this. No use forcing things onto anybody. It may be his loss now but there's nothing wrong with EASING your way into exploring the music.
Everything else will come later ("for those who thus desire"- to quote a tune title from ANOTHER field of jazz )

 

That does not rule out Alphonseo Trent, it merely delays the inevitable. Some things are bigger than personal taste, you can run, you can hide, you can absolutely refuse to engage, but still, there they are. There they are.