First rock records with extended improvisation

[Rabshakeh]

A recent Whatsapp discussion with a friend led to us pondering these two linked questions.

Which were the first rock (or 'blues' revival) LPs to really feature extended improvisation; and

which were the first rock (or blues revival) LPs featuring extended improvisation to be a big hit?

Basically, if I were a callow pimply teenager in 1965, who only listened to rock music and thought that songs should all be three minutes long, which records should have (if I had been listening) and then later did turn my head?

Presumably East West by Paul Butterfield is up there for the first question, and something by Cream, Zappa, Santana, or the Grateful Dead for the second (but which records?). Plus almost certainly Stand! by Sly Stone. 

I don't know as I wasn't there, but I thought it is an interesting question, similar to the recent chat about "AM Horn Bands", since it is presumably another staging point on the road to jazz' gradual acceptance by younger cohorts in the mid/late 1970s, in this case via psychedelic rock, prog and fusion.

I imagine that the answer is probably different for Americans and Europeans.

Any ideas or discussion welcome.

[JSngry]

11:06 long enough? Chambers Brothers 1967-68 LP version of "Time Has Come Today", if so.

Sides 3 & 4 of Freak Out also.

 

[mikeweil]

Interstellar Overdrive on the first Pink Floyd LP.

[felser]

"East West" by the Butterfield Blues Band, 1966 was indeed the first record with extended improvisation AFAIK.  Hard to define "hit".  That Butterfield album did chart, but 'Wheels of Fire' by Cream (June 1968 release) is probably the first one that was a megahit.  An onslaught followed.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by felser

[Rabshakeh]

48 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

Interstellar Overdrive on the first Pink Floyd LP.

Surprised I missed that one. So ubiquitous as to be unseeable, but clearly a starting point.

[T.D.]

I don't know for sure.

Some people give the Rolling Stones credit for the first extended track, I don't think it was a hit.

Going Home on the Aftermath album, recorded 1965, released 1/1/66

Edited December 7, 2022 by T.D.

[felser]

3 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Surprised I missed that one. So ubiquitous as to be unseeable, but clearly a starting point.

It came out after the Butterfield album, and charted much lower than the Butterfield album in the USA.  I know it was a hit in the UK.

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

11:06 long enough? Chambers Brothers 1967-68 LP version of "Time Has Come Today", if so.

Sides 3 & 4 of Freak Out also.

I don't know that Chambers LP. That sounds interesting. As with the discussion with the horn bands, there are always at that point two groups of listeners to consider, even before crossing the Atlantic to Europe.

Nice call on Freak Out. One of my strongest held musical beliefs is that it is difficult to understand the development of art rock or fusion (especially in Europe) without early Zappa. Some of the initial jazz forays aimed at rock acceptance by e.g. Dave Pike look very much like an attempt to enter through the breach Zappa had made. Again. I wasn't there and I may be wrong.

[felser]

2 minutes ago, T.D. said:

I don't know for sure.

Some people give the Rolling Stones credit.

Going Home, recorded 1965, released 1/1/66

Thought of that, but not sure I'd call it "extended improvisation".  It's a mess, as is "Revelation" by Love, but they are indeed looong messes. 

[T.D.]

Just now, felser said:

Thought of that, but not sure I'd call it "extended improvisation".  It's a mess, as is "Revelation" by Love, but they are indeed looong messes. 

I'm inclined to agree. Just summoned it on Youtube and couldn't make it through. 😉

[Rabshakeh]

What about the San Franciscans? Were they later developers in jam terms?

[felser]

13 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

What about the San Franciscans? Were they later developers in jam terms?

Yes. Jefferson Airplane,Santana, Grateful Dead, Quicksilver Messenger Service, It's A Beautiful Day, Sons of Champlin, Electric Flag and other lesser groups all had a lot of extended improvisation.  Not so much for Steve Miller Band, Country Joe & the Fish, and some others.  Kicked off bigtime in '67-'68 for a few years, petered out in the very early 70's for the most part (though the Dead went on and on and on, of course).

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by felser

[Rabshakeh]

22 minutes ago, felser said:

Yes. Jefferson Airplane,Santana, Grateful Dead, Quicksilver Messenger Service, It's A Beautiful Day, Sons of Champlin, Electric Flag and other lesser groups all had a lot of extended improvisation.  Not so much for Steve Miller Band, Country Joe & the Fish, and some others.  Kicked off bigtime in '67-'68 for a few years, petered out in the very early 70's.

Which do you think we're the "breakthrough" records in terms of extended soloing?

Edited December 7, 2022 by Rabshakeh

[mjzee]

9 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Which do you think we're the "breakthrough" records in terms of extended soloing?

[T.D.]

32 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I don't know that Chambers LP. That sounds interesting. As with the discussion with the horn bands, there are always at that point two groups of listeners to consider, even before crossing the Atlantic to Europe.

Nice call on Freak Out. One of my strongest held musical beliefs is that it is difficult to understand the development of art rock or fusion (especially in Europe) without early Zappa. Some of the initial jazz forays aimed at rock acceptance by e.g. Dave Pike look very much like an attempt to enter through the breach Zappa had made. Again. I wasn't there and I may be wrong.

That Chambers Bros. tune (Time has come today) is a real classic. Growing up in the early '70s, it got loads of radio play, often coupled with Incense and Peppermints by the Strawberry Alarm Clock as examples of early psychedelia.

[felser]

20 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Which do you think we're the "breakthrough" records?

"East/West" by Butterfield was the first monster, and it's great.  "Live/Dead" by the Grateful Dead, "Happy Trails" by Quicksilver Messenger Service and the first Santana album are the San Francisco album's I'd call out.  'Projections' by the Blues Project (out of NYC) had "Flute Thing" on it.

 

10 minutes ago, mjzee said:

It did go to #1.  Gotta admit, it's a very fun listen, if not exactly a masterpiece.

Edited December 7, 2022 by felser

[Rabshakeh]

Thanks everyone. Some great answers.

closing out the era and a bit later, I guess there is also that Allman Brothers live record too.

[Joe]

DA CAPO by Love, released in 1966, features the first side-long composition/performance by a rock band. "Revelation." This track features a sax solo by one Tjay Cantrelli, aka John Barberis.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Joe

[Rabshakeh]

20 minutes ago, felser said:

It did go to #1.  Gotta admit, it's a very fun listen, if not exactly a masterpiece.

From Wikipedia:

”It sold more than eight million copies within its first year of release, outselling every record in the history of recorded music to that time”.

Gosh.

[jlhoots]

Insect Trust - Robert Palmer

Edited December 8, 2022 by jlhoots

[felser]

20 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Thanks everyone. Some great answers.

closing out the era and a bit later, I guess there is also that Allman Brothers live record too.

Really a different era, but great records (two 2LP sets from Fillmore East).

19 minutes ago, Joe said:

DA CAPO by Love, released in 1966, features the first side-long composition/performance by a rock band. "Revelation." This track features a sax solo by one Tjay Cantrelli, aka John Barberis.

 

One of the great wastes of an album side in the history of Rock, as Bryan MacLean had so many good songs already written that did not get used.  I love Arthur Lee, but this was his nadir, a horrible ego trip.

[Joe]

1 hour ago, felser said:

Really a different era, but great records (two 2LP sets from Fillmore East).

One of the great wastes of an album side in the history of Rock, as Bryan MacLean had so many good songs already written that did not get used.  I love Arthur Lee, but this was his nadir, a horrible ego trip.

It's a polarizing performance for sure. I appreciate the proto-punk-ness of it all myself, but I also can't deny the bad vibes emanating from these grooves.

I'm surprised MacLean stuck around as long as he did. But we got FOREVER CHANGES out of it, so... 

[AllenLowe]

Hampton Grease Band might qualify, as well as Big Brother, depending on what you mean by "extended." Of course not always on record, but in live performance. I'll bet Hendrix did some of that.

I know East West is considered important, and I love Bloomfield, but I think he really didn't have a clue as to how to do that kind of thing, and it showed.  In performance Zappa did some long solos. Also, White Light White Heat by the VU is one of the best examples of very advanced soloing in a rock performance.

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I don't know that Chambers LP. That sounds interesting. As with the discussion with the horn bands, there are always at that point two groups of listeners to consider, even before crossing the Atlantic to Europe.

 

It wasn't improvisation as much as if was freak out, but I did make for a soul being psychedelicisized...

 

[felser]

23 minutes ago, JSngry said:

It wasn't improvisation as much as if was freak out, but I did make for a soul being psychedelicisized...

 

The title track of their 'Love Peace and Happiness' album was also extended, a full album side long.  

56 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

Hampton Grease Band might qualify, as well as Big Brother, depending on what you mean by "extended." Of course not always on record, but in live performance. I'll bet Hendrix did some of that.

I know East West is considered important, and I love Bloomfield, but I think he really didn't have a clue as to how to do that kind of thing, and it showed.  In performance Zappa did some long solos. Also, White Light White Heat by the VU is one of the best examples of very advanced soloing in a rock performance.

Hampton Grease Band came out in '71, and no one bought it.  Guitar playing on it is really good, but the "singing"?  Well...

I actually like the Bloomfield and Elvin Bishop (and the Paul Butterfield) solos on "East West" quite a bit.  And no one "knew" how to do them, it was unprecedented in rock.

Good call on "Sister Ray" from that VU 'White Light White Heat' album. 

At some point it would be interesting to talk about John Handy's "Spanish Lady" from the 'Live at Monterey' album, and what influence that may have had on all of this.