The Truth is, Free Improvisation is Extremely Easy to Do....

[Dmitry]

18 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I have found ways, I think, to energize the form, to give it an advanced sense of narrative; but the basic format, with the cult following of the form, has become, I truly believe, something of a scam.

......an easy way to deal with performance and repertoire - lazy, formulaic. It is now a matter of being stuck in the kind of repetition that bored these same musicians with bebop.

I compare it to the abstract art. Being a student of art history and having absolutely no preconceived prejudices, I am doing a fair amount of reading on the subject and I can't help thinking it has ran its course many decades ago, much like the free jazz and avantgarde music (how long can you call something avantgard, before it becomes a well-established conventional art?! If you can take classes in it at every single art school in the world ...how avantgarde can it be?) . Scam may appear like a very strong accusation, but I think it's spot on.

[HutchFan]

4 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

I compare it to the abstract art. Being a student of art history and having absolutely no preconceived prejudices, I am doing a fair amount of reading on the subject and I can't help thinking it has ran its course many decades ago, much like the free jazz and avantgarde music (how long can you call something avantgard, before it becomes a well-established conventional art?! If you can take classes in it at every single art school in the world ...how avantgarde can it be?) . Scam may appear like a very strong accusation, but I think it's spot on.

Yep.  It's very hard to break the rules when there are no rules.  There's only "something else."

I think that's where we find ourselves with post-modernism.

 

[Rabshakeh]

15 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

I compare it to the abstract art. Being a student of art history and having absolutely no preconceived prejudices, I am doing a fair amount of reading on the subject and I can't help thinking it has ran its course many decades ago, much like the free jazz and avantgarde music (how long can you call something avantgard, before it becomes a well-established conventional art?! If you can take classes in it at every single art school in the world ...how avantgarde can it be?) . Scam may appear like a very strong accusation, but I think it's spot on.

But all artistic (and institutional) movements run their course, not just avant-garde ones. Free jazz is no more of a "scam" than Philip Glass or ska punk.

I do agree that it is a bit weird that "avant-garde" arts of all sorts have such institutional acceptance as at 2023. This is good for the artists but maybe not healthy for the art, which can possibly be seen as being made to please teacher. Perhaps one result is that some styles continue to exist long after they should have done. But I don't really think that is much to do with "free" or "avantgarde" art. There are plenty of examples of institutional perpetuation of exhausted artistic forms that have nothing to do with a vanguard approach, from ancient scribal cultures to cycle 3,827 of the Marvel Cinematic Extended Universe.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[jlhoots]

57 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

What is the goal of this critique? Is it a plea for players to create a new style, or to revert to older styles of expression and playing? Or for a hybrid of sorts? 

I don't know - maybe the latter.

[mjzee]

One thing, imho, that's problematic about free jazz is that there's no notion of "better" and "worse."  It seems that everyone who plays free jazz is a "genius," which of course means that no one is.  I haven't seen critiques that say this piece of free jazz is better than that one, and why, or that this solo is better than that solo and why, or that this musician seems more inspired on this session than at that one and why.  There is no real analysis applied; implied is that any stretch of noisy music must be respected.  There is no hierarchy.  I can easily say that Ben Webster was better than, say, Stanley Turrentine, but that Turrentine was nonetheless very enjoyable to listen to.  

[HutchFan]

25 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

But all artistic (and institutional) movements run their course, not just avant-garde ones.

And today it seems like all movements -- and not just the artistic ones -- have run their course.  Our ideas, institutions, and myths are tired and worn, and it feels as if we are collectively at some sort of terminus.  Thus the seemingly never-ending parade of apocalypse-themed movies, books and TV programs in popular culture. 

But -- like William Butler Yeats said in "The Second Coming" -- there's always some sort of rebirth, even if it's dreadful.

Guess I'm sorta taking things to a dark place.  Sorry about that.  But isn't that where we are?  

 

5 minutes ago, mjzee said:

One thing, imho, that's problematic about free jazz is that there's no notion of "better" and "worse."  It seems that everyone who plays free jazz is a "genius," which of course means that no one is.

Maybe an over-simplification?

 

[Rabshakeh]

15 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

there's always some sort of rebirth, even if it's dreadful.

Comforting words.

[mjzee]

23 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Maybe an over-simplification?

Of course an over-simplification, but a rhetorical means to make what I think is a valid point.

[HutchFan]

15 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Comforting words.

Sorry.   

 

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, mjzee said:

One thing, imho, that's problematic about free jazz is that there's no notion of "better" and "worse."  It seems that everyone who plays free jazz is a "genius," which of course means that no one is.  I haven't seen critiques that say this piece of free jazz is better than that one, and why, or that this solo is better than that solo and why, or that this musician seems more inspired on this session than at that one and why.  There is no real analysis applied; implied is that any stretch of noisy music must be respected.  There is no hierarchy.  

I do not think this is right, and I struggle to identify what you are referencing.

Clearly there are critiques of musicians, some extremely well known (Amiri Baraka on Burton Greene?).

I wrote a response to this thread only a few above this where I said what I thought of two of the masters: Zorn and Shepp. The former is frequently criticised on this forum.

There obviously is a hierarchy too: Cecil Taylor, John Coltrane, Albert Ayler and Ornette Coleman are the first names almost everyone hears when they move into this music. That's a well trodden path, in the same way as you'd encounter Basie and Ellington and Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young and Ben Webster in swing.

There is a tendancy within jazz to label everyone a genius, and to refer to their music in uncritical purple terms. It does get pretty sickly after a while, but I don't think that is any more pronounced for Avant Garde jazz than for bop.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[mjzee]

15 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

There obviously is a hierarchy too: Cecil Taylor, John Coltrane, Albert Ayler and Ornette Coleman are the first names almost everyone hears when they move into this music. That's a well trodden path, in the same way as you'd encounter Basie and Ellington and Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young and Ben Webster in swing.

OK, then answer me this: Which are the 3 worst Ornette albums and why?  He released 26 leader albums per Wikipedia.  Which are his 3 worst, and what are the qualities that makes them worse than, say, his 3 best?

[Rabshakeh]

24 minutes ago, mjzee said:

OK, then answer me this: Which are the 3 worst Ornette albums and why?  He released 26 leader albums per Wikipedia.  Which are his 3 worst, and what are the qualities that makes them worse than, say, his 3 best?

The Blue Notes: messing around with instruments he couldn't play. Writing not so strong. Over-reliance on the same licks. Either failure to synch with the Coltrane rhythm section or a mix of Denardo on drums and Haden being wilfully ignored.

There's still gems there but they're not great albums in my opinion.

Same goes for many of the surrounding records and canonical boots from the period.

I don't think that's a maverick view, either. Ornette Coleman's career is often seen as having dipped.

You'd be on better ground with Cecil Taylor here, but only because he was extremely consistent. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Dub Modal]

25 minutes ago, mjzee said:

OK, then answer me this: Which are the 3 worst Ornette albums and why?  He released 26 leader albums per Wikipedia.  Which are his 3 worst, and what are the qualities that makes them worse than, say, his 3 best?

Oh man, a deep dive into his catalog is what I need. Prob not this week but in the near future. I don't have a lot of his albums - maybe even just the Golden Circle set...I'll have to check. I definitely enjoy those btw. 

Reminds me of a record store visit I had a few years ago. Another customer brought up the Shape Of Jazz to Come for purchase and the store owner said, "Great album! The rest of his work is pure shit but this is a great one. Nice choice!" I laughed. That store owner is a dick btw. 

2 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

The Blue Notes: messing around with instruments he couldn't play. Writing not so strong. Either failure to synch with the Coltrane rhythm section or a mix of Denardo on drums and Haden being wilfully ignored.

There's still gems there but they're not great albums in my opinion.

Same goes for many of the surrounding records and canonical boots from the period.

I don't think that's a maverick view, either. Ornette Coleman's career is often seen as having dipped.

You'd be on better ground with Cecil Taylor here, but only because he was extremely consistent. 

Golden Circle though. You don't like those?

Edited July 10, 2023 by Dub Modal
Wrong album title

[Rabshakeh]

My mistake! The Golden Circle records are excellent.

I meant Foxhole and the two Redman records.

I completely forgot Golden Circle was BN.

3 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Oh man, a deep dive into his catalog is what I need. Prob not this week but in the near future. I don't have a lot of his albums - maybe even just the Golden Circle set...I'll have to check. I definitely enjoy those btw. 

Worth checking out the B sides comps. There are a couple of them, including for the Atlantic era and for the Science Fiction session. They're as good as the albums from which the sessions derive. Much better in my opinion than the official releases from Coleman's middle period.

[Dub Modal]

6 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

My mistake! The Golden Circle records are excellent.

I meant Foxhole and the two Redman records.

I completely forgot Golden Circle was BN.

Worth checking out the B sides comps. There are a couple of them, including for the Atlantic era and for the Science Fiction session. They're as good as the albums from which the sessions derive. Much better in my opinion than the official releases from Coleman's middle period.

Thanks for the leads 👍 

[Teasing the Korean]

Sharing, for what it's worth:  I have several friends/family members who are avid jazz listeners, others who are jazz musicians, professional or semi-professional.  Only one musician friend of mine ever talks about wanting to play free jazz. I don't think he has gotten gigs playing it. The other musicians are into their own respective things.  Among listeners, the only time it comes up is in conversations about 60s/70s LPs by Cecil Taylor, Ornette, etc. and that is not very often.  I don't sense an aversion to it, but I don't pick up on an interest, either.  

[JSngry]

15 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

 

Worth checking out the B sides comps. 

What are those? 

[Rabshakeh]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

What are those? 

Art of the Improvisers and Twins for Atlantic Quartet records, and Broken Shadows for Science Fiction. They're as good as the canonical records they match, in my opinion. 

[JSngry]

Gotcha 

Agreed. 

[AllenLowe]

4 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

What is the goal of this critique? Is it a plea for players to create a new style, or to revert to older styles of expression and playing? Or for a hybrid of sorts? 

I don't have a goal, per se, except to clarify my own position as a saxophonist and composer; and I say immodestly that the work my group has done on our last 2 projects is a reasonable alternative to the prevailing modes of open playing, as a way of integrating composition and a good deal of freedom. I can post some of the things we have done a bit later, but the best compliments I have gotten were that I "had reinvented free jazz;" that my work was "a wakeup call from the avant garde" (Jonathan Lethem) and, according to Anthony Braxton, "Allen Lowe is one of the few musicians doing anything new....Allen Lowe IS the tradition."

I think that what we are doing is important though it is an uphill struggle for recognition.

17 hours ago, rostasi said:

I say: be the improv king that you think you should be,
by playing with others in the manner you think it should be done - 
pretty much like any other art form.

Yes, Matana - and Chapter Five is coming the end of September!

… and Allen, I love you, but you are in no way even remotely playing guitar -
or even interacting with another instrument - anywhere near the way Halvorson does.

this is high school level guitar; no better than what I do in those two pieces:

 

or this; amateurism posing as anti-orthodoxy:

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

I hope it doesn't merge my posts, though I suspect it will; these are from In the Dark. The first is Innuendo in Blue, a composed piece with free solos by me, Ken Peplowski, Aaron Johnson, Lewis Porter and Kellen Hannas. We are building an imaginative construct from an idea of Ellington. Peplowski in particular might surprise you here:

This is our official video; a humorous fusion of stock footage with an astoundingly evocative solo by Aaron Johnson; no other horn player today could have taken this melody and embellished it in such a powerful and imaginative way (both these compositions are mine). Of course the reference is Johnny Hodges, the solo is completely free:

 

[rostasi]

I think the above statement (Justin V) is way too extreme.
Even tho what Allen says appears a bit like an
”Oh, my kid can do that”-ism, the issue seems
to boil down to: he has preferences for an improv
that’s tethered to a more distinctive musical content
and that appears to him to be lacking in the above examples.
The funny thing is that the “shaped, compositionally-based performance”
that is longed for does actually exist in quite a major way in both of those
Halvorson videos. It just happens to be more amorphous than what Allen likes.

And you know what? That’s all right for him to have that opinion.

That track, Hartford, is really quite wonderful to me - especially
the clearer, less hesitant version on their album On and Off.
(Apparently, in the video, that was their first time performing together?)
It kinda takes a John Fahey-like folk structure and gives the 
melody a serrated edge to it. To me, it’s refreshingly innovative.

Edited July 11, 2023 by rostasi

[JSngry]

There. 

[AllenLowe]

7 hours ago, rostasi said:

I think the above statement (Justin V) is way too extreme.
Even tho what Allen says appears a bit like an
”Oh, my kid can do that”-ism, the issue seems
to boil down to: he has preferences for an improv
that’s tethered to a more distinctive musical content
and that appears to him to be lacking in the above examples.
The funny thing is that the “shaped, compositionally-based performance”
that is longed for does actually exist in quite a major way in both of those
Halvorson videos. It just happens to be more amorphous than what Allen likes.

And you know what? That’s all right for him to have that opinion.

That track, Hartford, is really quite wonderful to me - especially
the clearer, less hesitant version on their album On and Off.
(Apparently, in the video, that was their first time performing together?)
It kinda takes a John Fahey-like folk structure and gives the 
melody a serrated edge to it. To me, it’s refreshingly innovative.

Thank you for saying that. Yes it means we can disagree without throwing too much mud on each other. And though I disagree, I  understand your position on Mary. This could end up like one of those 1950s arguments about structuralism and formalism, which though important tend to put everyone to sleep, as they would everybody else here. And for the record, I met her once probably 20 years ago and we’ve never discussed any collaboration.

Edited July 11, 2023 by AllenLowe

[Dub Modal]

It’s an interesting POV, not sure I agree. By referencing high school level playing, it seems there should be some links to that demo of players if existent for comparison, preferably those that are serious (but not necessarily virtuoso) . I think Halvorson is well beyond that level but I don’t listen to high schoolers.