BFT 237 Discussion Thread

[felser]

Just now, sidewinder said:

Track 6 composition is Bobby Watson's 'Time Will Tell' - one of his best.

Yes!

[sidewinder]

8 minutes ago, felser said:

Correct on the composition!  Not Moore, but same era (a few years younger than Moore).

Wouldn't be Ralph Bowen would it? I'm getting my Ralphs mixed up and it certainly sounds like him.

[felser]

3 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Wouldn't be Ralph Bowen would it? I'm getting my Ralphs mixed up and it certainly sounds like him.

Yes it is Bowen!  Rest of the ID becomes pretty easy now.

[sidewinder]

2 minutes ago, felser said:

Yes it is Bowen!  Rest of the ID becomes pretty easy now.

Ah - from the album 'Five' on Criss Cross Jazz. John Swana on trumpet, his name did cross my mind.

[felser]

18 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Ah - from the album 'Five' on Criss Cross Jazz. John Swana on trumpet, his name did cross my mind.

Yes!

To all: 3,4,5,9. and 10 still need ID's!  Good luck on a couple of them, but the other three are quite doable.

Edited December 1, 2023 by felser

[sidewinder]

Track 9 is Sly Stone's 'You Caught Me Smilin' Again'. This one not by Sly and the Family Stone but by obscure 70s group 'The Nineteenth Whole' from the 'Smilin'' album. A few ringers such as Cornell Dupree and Emmanuel Riggins in the lineup.

The alto on track 3 sure sounds like a younger Oliver Lake to me !

[felser]

2 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Track 9 is Sly Stone's 'You Caught Me Smilin' Again'. This one not by Sly and the Family Stone but by obscure 70s group 'The Nineteenth Whole' from the 'Smilin'' album. A few ringers such as Cornell Dupree and Emmanuel Riggins in the lineup.

The alto on track 3 sure sounds like a younger Oliver Lake to me !

Yes, well done on #9, didn't expect anyone to get that one!   #3 not Lake.

[sidewinder]

That wouldn't be Joanne Brackeen on track 4 would it? The technique is so good that I thought it might be her. The alto player has quite a dry style and the guitarist sounds a bit like Ryo Kawasaki.

20 minutes ago, felser said:

Yes, well done on #9, didn't expect anyone to get that one!   #3 not Lake.

Anthony Braxton in subdued mood perhaps?

Edited December 1, 2023 by sidewinder

[felser]

25 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

That wouldn't be Joanne Brackeen on track 4 would it? The technique is so good that I thought it might be her. The alto player has quite a dry style and the guitarist sounds a bit like Ryo Kawasaki.

Not Brackeen.  Not a pianist I am really familiar with ,but very good on this album.  The alto player is the only big name.  Not Braxton.

Edited December 1, 2023 by felser

[JSngry]

Hello, December!!!!

TRACK ONE - It's Fryin' Time? What are we frying here? Records like this...you don't remember them until you do, and then you forget them again as soon as they're over. It's got a good beat and you can dance to it, but don't they all? I'd like to see the Shindig dancers on this one, especially the one with the glasses, she could give this meaning beyond what it actually has. Frying indeed!

TRACK TWO - "Rahsaan's Run", by somebody who sounds like they've gotten the answers to last year's test. Pleasant enough, and certainly a lot of work done to get here, but I'd rent, not buy.

TRACK THREE - Well, it's obvious who all it sounds like. But as far as who it actually is....I couldn't tell you, other than it's obviously not who it sounds like. "E" for effort, and "E+" for not laming out and at least looking past 1958 for inspiration, so good for them/that, right? If the future of jazz is role-playing, hey, here we are!

TRACK FOUR - That sounds like Marion Brown on alto. Not really fond of the composition, the whole repetition thing...Phillip Glass ruined that for me. Apart from that, I don't know this record, can't really identify who else it might be, not a lot of (to me) strong identity afaic past Brown. Dude made a lot of records. This one sounds well-produced, more than many, so points for that.

TRACK FIVE - Jackie & Roy, from Grass. These lyrics are borderline baby (or cult), take your pick. It's them at their worse in terms of material. But it's not a bad album, even if it's not really good either. It's Jackie & Roy, they did what the did, regardless of what the material was. Me, if it's this or their Cheerios commercial, I'm taking the delicious oat goodness of the cereal. And I know for a fact that Rob & Laura would get high, sneak into the Village for a set of J&R, and then go back to New Rochelle and fuck all night. So props to everybody involved for that!

TRACK SIX - I'm thinking that this is the Blakey Overalls Band? They were better than the sum of their parts, imo, and James Williams dealt. Bottom line, though, Blakey had a regular band again, and he carpe deimed like a mo!

TRACK SEVEN - Ok, Mingus, Opus #?, from Moves. I played in a band in Denton, 1984 or so, and we played this one. It doesn't flow as organically, form-wise, as Mingus' best, those vamps pop up and get out in such a way so as to not really let you dig in, so they're really distracting instead of inspiring. But it's still a challenge, and for me, this is probably the "best" cut on the record. But for me, the Changes albums were where the shit got back on track. But now that everybody's dead, I'd much rather have "almost"-quality Mingus than none at all.

TRACK EIGHT - "The Ringer", Roy Ayers, Virgo Vibes. Joe Henderson on tenor. Found white-label promos of both this and Members, Don't Get Weary for $4.98 each in some old Dallas neighborhood mom&pop ca. 1977, right when I first started just going to damn near every record store in the Yellow Pages, because in those days, you could literally never know what any given store would have. This one didn't have a whole helluva lot, but they did have those. Worth my while! It's interesting how Charles Tolliver and Roy Ayers kind of intersected there for a minute or two, not just for Ayers albums at Atlantic, but on Ayers' first Polydor record. You gotta think that Herbie Mann was in the mix, he had to be. A seemingly unlikely mix, but there they both were. And it also speaks to Ayers having some deeper messaging to his music than the casual dismissers often assume.

TRACK NINE - Wow, talk about not remembering something until it's there...I got this one back in the glory days of The Blogosphere and had to sleuth it out to realize I had it! Bob Porter strikes again, and there are some familiar names on here, familiar at least within the small-ish circle of that type of music, It's slight, it's (almost) totally forgettable, and totally pleasant (enough). But hey - Gordon Edwards!!!!!! Here: https://www.discogs.com/release/2292669-The-Nineteenth-Whole-Smilin

TRACK TEN - Derivative as fuck, but not in a consciously retro way. Sounds like somebody who probably started a while back and stayed local. Not gonna change the world, the world took care of that by itself, but also a nice little pocket of resistance that the world hasn't had time to bother with, which is in itself reason enough to not pursue a "career" in jazz.

TRACK ELEVEN - Jesus, this is just silly. Totally silly. All of it.

TRACK TWELVE  - Larry Willis' Greatest Hit!!!! He even got BS&T to record it, iirc. Hugh Masakela. Others probably like this record more than I do, but yeah, I get the attraction and share some of the affection.

Thank you, and Merry Happy!!!!

[felser]

5 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Hello, December!!!!

TRACK ONE - It's Fryin' Time? What are we frying here? Records like this...you don't remember them until you do, and then you forget them again as soon as they're over. It's got a good beat and you can dance to it, but don't they all? I'd like to see the Shindig dancers on this one, especially the one with the glasses, she could give this meaning beyond what it actually has. Frying indeed!

This one has great sentimental value to me, blew my 10-year old socks off right when I got my first transistor radio and was logging serious listening while picking up the pieces from a divorce/move-disrupted family life .  Magic to me.

TRACK TWO - "Rahsaan's Run", by somebody who sounds like they've gotten the answers to last year's test. Pleasant enough, and certainly a lot of work done to get here, but I'd rent, not buy.

Yes, I hear you.  Hard to go wrong on this tune.  Previously ID'd.

TRACK THREE - Well, it's obvious who all it sounds like. But as far as who it actually is....I couldn't tell you, other than it's obviously not who it sounds like. "E" for effort, and "E+" for not laming out and at least looking past 1958 for inspiration, so good for them/that, right? If the future of jazz is role-playing, hey, here we are!

Good call on this one being more recent.  And you'll find it interesting who it is.

TRACK FOUR - That sounds like Marion Brown on alto. Not really fond of the composition, the whole repetition thing...Phillip Glass ruined that for me. Apart from that, I don't know this record, can't really identify who else it might be, not a lot of (to me) strong identity afaic past Brown. Dude made a lot of records. This one sounds well-produced, more than many, so points for that.

Yes, Marion Brown, and he's the only well-known musician on it.  I never listened to much Phillip Glass, and this sounds lovely to me.

TRACK FIVE - Jackie & Roy, from Grass. These lyrics are borderline baby (or cult), take your pick. It's them at their worse in terms of material. But it's not a bad album, even if it's not really good either. It's Jackie & Roy, they did what the did, regardless of what the material was. Me, if it's this or their Cheerios commercial, I'm taking the delicious oat goodness of the cereal. And I know for a fact that Rob & Laura would get high, sneak into the Village for a set of J&R, and then go back to New Rochelle and fuck all night. So props to everybody involved for that!

Correct.  I agree that the lyrics are lame, but find this musically compelling (remember, I'm a 60's rock guy), and well outside of what you would expect from them, and I've always adored Jackie Cain's prime-era vocals.  I have a good number of discs by them ranging from the 50's to the 80's (plus their late 40's work with Charlie Ventura), and I listen to them,

TRACK SIX - I'm thinking that this is the Blakey Overalls Band? They were better than the sum of their parts, imo, and James Williams dealt. Bottom line, though, Blakey had a regular band again, and he carpe deimed like a mo!

Correct.  And I agree with your sentiments.  Previously ID'd.

TRACK SEVEN - Ok, Mingus, Opus #?, from Moves. I played in a band in Denton, 1984 or so, and we played this one. It doesn't flow as organically, form-wise, as Mingus' best, those vamps pop up and get out in such a way so as to not really let you dig in, so they're really distracting instead of inspiring. But it's still a challenge, and for me, this is probably the "best" cut on the record. But for me, the Changes albums were where the shit got back on track. But now that everybody's dead, I'd much rather have "almost"-quality Mingus than none at all.

Correct, I personally love the album and the cut, but it is more low-key than the Changes albums, which benefited greatly from Jack Walrath coming on board.

TRACK EIGHT - "The Ringer", Roy Ayers, Virgo Vibes. Joe Henderson on tenor. Found white-label promos of both this and Members, Don't Get Weary for $4.98 each in some old Dallas neighborhood mom&pop ca. 1977, right when I first started just going to damn near every record store in the Yellow Pages, because in those days, you could literally never know what any given store would have. This one didn't have a whole helluva lot, but they did have those. Worth my while! It's interesting how Charles Tolliver and Roy Ayers kind of intersected there for a minute or two, not just for Ayers albums at Atlantic, but on Ayers' first Polydor record. You gotta think that Herbie Mann was in the mix, he had to be. A seemingly unlikely mix, but there they both were. And it also speaks to Ayers having some deeper messaging to his music than the casual dismissers often assume.

With you on everything here.  Did not realize Tolliver was on the first Polydor album (which I do have).  The Herbie Mann mix included Bruno Carr playing drums on this, as well as Mann producing the album.  The magic days of walking into stores in the 70's and finding great used albums you never even knew existed, let alone having never heard them!

TRACK NINE - Wow, talk about not remembering something until it's there...I got this one back in the glory days of The Blogosphere and had to sleuth it out to realize I had it! Bob Porter strikes again, and there are some familiar names on here, familiar at least within the small-ish circle of that type of music, It's slight, it's (almost) totally forgettable, and totally pleasant (enough). But hey - Gordon Edwards!!!!!! Here: https://www.discogs.com/release/2292669-The-Nineteenth-Whole-Smilin

Some people are loving this track,  It's not profound, but it hits a sweet spot hard.  Surprised anyone was aware of this record, I stumbled onto it through a mass purchase from another board member here.

TRACK TEN - Derivative as fuck, but not in a consciously retro way. Sounds like somebody who probably started a while back and stayed local. Not gonna change the world, the world took care of that by itself, but also a nice little pocket of resistance that the world hasn't had time to bother with, which is in itself reason enough to not pursue a "career" in jazz.

You nailed the vibe and the biography.  The locality is L.A., which is not surprising to me.  No direct Horace Tapscott or Nimbus West type connection that I can find, but I bet it would be there if I was able to dig further.

TRACK ELEVEN - Jesus, this is just silly. Totally silly. All of it.

Me, I love it. 

TRACK TWELVE  - Larry Willis' Greatest Hit!!!! He even got BS&T to record it, iirc. Hugh Masakela. Others probably like this record more than I do, but yeah, I get the attraction and share some of the affection.

Yes, BST did record this on the 'No Sweat' album!  

Thank you, and Merry Happy!!!!

Thanks for your usual brilliant and colorful commentary and incredible knowledge, and a most Merry Happy to you and your loved ones!

 

[JSngry]

5 hours ago, felser said:

...some listeners really like the out of left field semi-jazz or non-jazz cuts I include (and those are my favorite ones to use), but others complain or even boycott (I know that for a fact, they've told me) my BFT's because of their inclusion. 

And that is where you tell them to go fuck themselves.

And mean it. 

Oh, those two Atlantic's I found, they were new! This just some neighborhood record store that never got rid of old stock, apparently.

Chain stores...some upsides, some downsides. But the pre-chain stores, yeah, you had to hit them all at least once! 

[T.D.]

Excellent! Based on felser's response to Thom I had guessed the altoist in #4, but was too lazy to sleuth/verify and it's too early in the month for that anyway. Don't mind reading the IDs...not really spoilers because I wasn't going to get them; Elvin-ness of #2 and Dolphy-ism of #3 not enough to narrow down the candidates.

FWIW I enjoy the semi-non-quasi jazz excursions.

[Added] Based on Jim's ID, #4 must be this. Weirdly, that's from a recording I recently came very close to buying, but held off on because I prefer the altoist's earlier work. 🙄

In the "minimalist" area, Marion Brown collaborated with Harold Budd. I think the first recording of Budd's Bismillahi 'Rahmani 'Rrahim is on MB's Vista (a personal favorite album on which Budd performed). And Brown played on Budd's The Pavilion of Dreams album. See for instance https://newdirectionsinmusic.substack.com/p/harold-budd-marion-brown-and-the

Edited December 2, 2023 by T.D.

[felser]

3 hours ago, T.D. said:

 

FWIW I enjoy the semi-non-quasi jazz excursions.

[Added] Based on Jim's ID, #4 must be this. Weirdly, that's from a recording I recently came very close to buying, but held off on because I prefer the altoist's earlier work. 🙄

 

If you like 'Vista', you'll find this album to be excellent.  Thanks for your kind words on my offbeat selections.  I'll look to include more next year.

[felser]

3 and 10 remain unidentified.  I suspect no one is going to get 10, but 3 should most certainly be ID'd in this neighborhood!

[mjzee]

Is #3 Walt Dickerson?

[felser]

6 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Is #3 Walt Dickerson?

It is not Dickerson!

[JSngry]

I've cheated on both 3 & 10 and am honor bound not to spill any beans, but from the online blurbs I've seen for what appears to be #3, no vibist is listed. Strange! 

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

 #3, no vibist is listed. Strange! 

There's actually a very interesting reason for that!

[randyhersom]

Robert Stewart would fit the timeline for 10.

[felser]

22 minutes ago, randyhersom said:

Robert Stewart would fit the timeline for 10.

Not Stewart, more obscure.

[AllenLowe]

so when's the reveal? Perspiring minds want to know.

[felser]

44 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

so when's the reveal? Perspiring minds want to know.

New Years Eve Day, Dec. 31, though 10 of the 12 cuts have been ID'd at this point.  Only #3 (with that mystery vibes player) and #10 are still unidentified.

[Dub Modal]

Late here this month. Without reading other comments just yet:

1. Struggling to place the decade here - 50s or 60s, leaning 60s recoding. Definitely a danceable groove and fun song.

2. Sounds Tolliver-ish in arrangement. Familiar tune. Good playing but no guesses.

3. Monk-ish arrangement. Seems like a 70s group. Sax player is like Sam Rivers restrained a bit. Recording has the trombone sounding like a French horn in spots.

4. Lyrical playing from the pianist. Reminiscent of Tyner in a way. Overall arrangement makes me think of Corea as well. Not sure. The guitarist comes in at just the right moment. Song is like a cleaned up spiritual jazz style but the guitarist elevated it beyond mediocre. 

5. Off broadway? Sounds like a show tune. 

6. I like the intro. Sounds 70s as well. 2 saxes? First solo serves the song very well. My favorite song in this BFT so far. 

7. Well, this is good too. Nice playing and definitely a groove. 

8. Better than 7 and a similar style. 

9. Interesting break and good timing for one. Kind of sounds like the Blackbyrds. 

10. Tyner-ish opening. Pretty sure I’ve heard this song before. Not Tyner I don’t think bc there’s not enough notes being played. Interesting restraint in that regard. 

11. Psych soul. Supreme visions of longtitude…ok! Definitely psychedelic lol. 

12. Reminds me of 70s Hubbard. 
 

nice BFT man! Thanks for putting it together 👍

 

[felser]

58 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Late here this month. Without reading other comments just yet:

All cuts except #3 and #10 have been identified.

1. Struggling to place the decade here - 50s or 60s, leaning 60s recoding. Definitely a danceable groove and fun song. 

Yes, 60's, great fun song!

2. Sounds Tolliver-ish in arrangement. Familiar tune. Good playing but no guesses.

Not Tolliver, but he shows up elsewhere on the BFT.

3. Monk-ish arrangement. Seems like a 70s group. Sax player is like Sam Rivers restrained a bit. Recording has the trombone sounding like a French horn in spots.

Not 70's, not Rivers.

4. Lyrical playing from the pianist. Reminiscent of Tyner in a way. Overall arrangement makes me think of Corea as well. Not sure. The guitarist comes in at just the right moment. Song is like a cleaned up spiritual jazz style but the guitarist elevated it beyond mediocre. 

I love this cut, but it hasn't been a favorite for others.

5. Off broadway? Sounds like a show tune. 

Not a show tune, but the singer was certainly capable of delivering those and a lot of other styles extremely well.

6. I like the intro. Sounds 70s as well. 2 saxes? First solo serves the song very well. My favorite song in this BFT so far. 

Yes, 70's, and a favorite of mine!

7. Well, this is good too. Nice playing and definitely a groove. 

Agreed!

8. Better than 7 and a similar style. 

It's a great composition, played well.

9. Interesting break and good timing for one. Kind of sounds like the Blackbyrds. 

A couple of the other guys love this one!  Recorded pre-Blackbyrds.

10. Tyner-ish opening. Pretty sure I’ve heard this song before. Not Tyner I don’t think bc there’s not enough notes being played. Interesting restraint in that regard. 

I'd actually be surprised and pleased if you or anyone else here has heard this before!

11. Psych soul. Supreme visions of longtitude…ok! Definitely psychedelic lol. 

Song and its original source are well-known way beyond this recording.

12. Reminds me of 70s Hubbard. 

Trumpeter may surprise you!
 

nice BFT man! Thanks for putting it together 👍

Thanks for listening and for your responses!