BFT 240 Discussion Thread

[mikeweil]

Okay, here's the remainder:

8 - Joe - Initially I thought of the Jazztet, but that's not Benny Golson. Nice feel overall, that band sounds like they played together some time. Mellow, relaxed, but still intense. I like how the pianist takes his time. Almost fragile trombone sound. A bit like Bill Harris. He's talkin'! Clark Terry! Now what the hell is this record? Clarinet? Now I'm stomped .... That repeated note is out of tune, sorry. Very nice mixture! 

9 - mikeweil - Night In Tunisia with Spanish lyrics .... I should know who this is ....

10 - Ken Dryden - Just-a-Sittin'and-a-Rockin'-very-slowly with a pipe organ - could this be Dick Hyman? I don't know any other pipists. I like this. Probably not Hyman? I dunno. Nice closer.

Great idea for an annoversary BFT, and nice to be in both roles! Thanks to everybody.

Edited March 12 by mikeweil
typos

[mikeweil]

Turns out I bought that Jacquet album a few months ago, but listened only once or twice to it until now. His Clef/Verve albums are a cause of neglect - they deserve the Mosaic treatment! I thought of Jo Jones, but wanted to listen once more to confirm .... 

Edited March 12 by mikeweil

[medjuck]

4 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Turns out I bought that Jacquet album a few months ago, but listened only once or twice to it until now. His Clef/Verve albums are a cause of neglect - they deserve the Mosaic treatment! I thought of Jo Jones, but wanted to listen once more to confirm .... 

I should probably try to hear more Jacquet in non-JATP settings. 

[JSngry]

There's literally decades of such recordings! 

[medjuck]

On 3/12/2024 at 1:45 AM, JSngry said:

There's literally decades of such recordings! 

Any recommendations?

[JSngry]

The Prestiges are excellent. Also Argo. Anything with Milt Buckner. 

Etc. 

[JSngry]

And this one is excellent+

[mikeweil]

I second these recommndations. In his younger years, Jacquet seemed a bit competitive to me, especially in jam session contexts, to a lesser degree in his leader dates. From the Verve dates on he seems more relaxed and self-assured and mature to me. I like the Verve sides a lot, but they are hard to get, and never were reissued in satisfying compilations. 

Edited April 1 by mikeweil

[Rabshakeh]

On 3/4/2024 at 6:54 PM, JSngry said:

The secret link in Jacquet is Lester Young. There's a distinction between "White Lester" and "Black Lester" in terms of which general way his influences landed.

Interesting take. I always thought that the Jazz 101 idea that Lester Young is "cool" versus Hawkins being hot didn't stand up to three minutes actual listening to pre-war Basie.

But is Charlie Parker in the Black Lester influence camp or the White Lester influence camp?

[JSngry]

Bird is in the Bird camp.

I mean, as a kid he heard Lester in KC, so he got Full Lester. Therein lies the difference. 

The notion of Lester having a strong influence on the R & B players is hardly original with me, but it is underplayed in Jazz 101.

One more reason I say Fuck Jazz 101.

21 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Interesting take. I always thought that the Jazz 101 idea that Lester Young is "cool" versus Hawkins being hot didn't stand up to three minutes actual listening to pre-war Basie. 

What holds up more is the notion of vertical bs horizontal, but that too has its limitations.

Ultimately, it's all speech. 

[JSngry]

Speech bothers some people, so let's call it language.

But either way, this is where Jazz 101 fails. They attempt translation without understanding the language to begin with. 

[tkeith]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Speech bothers some people, so let's call it language.

But either way, this is where Jazz 101 fails. They attempt translation without understanding the language to begin with. 

Amen, brother.

[Ken Dryden]

On 3/11/2024 at 8:21 PM, mikeweil said:

10 - Ken Dryden - Just-a-Sittin'and-a-Rockin'-very-slowly with a pipe organ - could this be Dick Hyman? I don't know any other pipists. I like this. Probably not Hyman? I dunno. Nice closer.

Great idea for an annoversary BFT, and nice to be in both roles! Thanks to everybody.

I thought his name would come up in this BFT but it isn’t Dick Hyman. 

[Joe]

Notes and things.

@Dan Gould Tenor tone says Bennie Wallace, and some of the ideas are a bit off the wall in a Wallace-like way. Acrid or nasal? I feel like this player's sound lends itself to descriptions like that. Like the use of low brass in the arrangement. Surprised by the presence of slap bass and guitar wahs. Mid-80s? Sophisticated, regardless of era.

@mikeweil Ethnic Heritage Ensemble with a guest vocalist? No, this is more Latin. Afro-Caribbean. Ah, it's "Night in Tunisia"… I missed the intro’s tip-off. Not Flora Purim but the vocalese almost sounds like her.  I like; percolating!

@medjuck Another saxophone player (alto) I should recognize. Knows how to turn a phrase. The tune says they are a more pop or R & B-leaning player, but I get the sense that they are more of a traditional jazz player branching out here. The piano player on the other hand sounds like a pop or R & B player "jazzing" it up. I don't mean that derogatorily; I only mean that I think they're more fluent in different vocabulary. This moves! And I have the feeling I'm going to kick myself when it's revealed.

@mjzee Shelly Manne with Rogers and Giuffre? Or is that Al Cohn? There’s a Basie influence for sure, (the intro) but the arrangement has color that feels more Gil Evans-esque. The line they play after the trombone solo: knotty! I suppose this could be a Kenton band. I’m also getting Mulligan vibes, but there’s no Gerry… hmmm… could it be a tune from this record? I’ve always wondered about this one. https://www.allmusic.com/album/elliot-lawrence-band-plays-gerry-mulligan-arrangements-mw0000190583 If I’m right, I’m overdo to audition this.

@JSngry A very particular kind of swing. Baritone Pres! But with crispy edges… I hear an R &B growler latent in the tenor’s approach. This builds in intensity brilliantly. Charlie Shavers on trumpet? Again, a slightly suppressed growl. And then some Eldridge-like high notes. Maybe it is 50s Roy... if not, one of his best imitators. Hot playing, hot recording. I immediately hit replay on this one.

@tkeith Some players with a sense of humor. Roswell Rudd on trombone… feels a bit more controlled and traditionally virtuosic to be Rudd, but the spirit of Rudd is there. Now, that did not go where I thought it was going to after the head, which was rather Ornette-like. Now it’s almost high life. Is this Charlie Burnham on violin? Liking the call and response between the two leads.

@Ken Dryden Church organ, very vocalized alto sax. Evocative vibrato. I’m guessing a surprising younger player more than a veteran. Meaning I’m not entirely convinced by them. I genuinely have no idea, but I’m intrigued!

Joe This one has been identified by several listeners. ‘Nuff said for now. (Although I will say I forgot how much that trombone solo is a talking blues solo.)

@DrJ I’m down with this tempo and approach to groove. The tune is tantalizing me. Coltrane… "Crescent," jeez, how could I not hear that! Clever how the lyrics circle back to that reference. Dave Liebman on soprano maybe? Not sure this player’s tone has the same body as Liebman, but the conception stakes me as similar. Most impressed by the rhythm section, which is especially locked in and responding to each other during the piano solo.

@felser The theme of this BFT is sax players Joe can’t pick out of a crowd. Woody Shaw vibes once the full band arrives. It’s the darkness in the chord progression I suppose, the quartal harmony stuff all over. Sounds more like Charles Tolliver than Woody though. Is this the drummer’s date? They’re playing like it under the trombone solo. Maybe it’s the sax player’s date - quite an entrance! This almost sounds like John Gilmore, but I don’t think it is. Is the ending to that solo anticlimactic, though? I don’t think so - I just think this is a player who swerves a lot. Nope; it’s the drummer’s record for sure.

Thoroughly enjoyed this and looking forward to learning who's playing what!

Edited March 18 by Joe

[Dan Gould]

27 minutes ago, Joe said:

!

Joe This one has been identified by several listeners. ‘Nuff said for now. (Although I will say I forgot how much that trombone solo is a talking blues solo.)

 

Has it really? I am only getting Jimmy Hamilton and Clark Terry from a thread-review. Certainly curious for what brings it all together to an actual answer.

[mjzee]

43 minutes ago, Joe said:

Shelly Manne with Rogers and Giuffre? Or is that Al Cohn? There’s a Basie influence for sure, (the intro) but the arrangement has color that feels more Gil Evans-esque. The line they play after the trombone solo: knotty! I suppose this could be a Kenton band. I’m also getting Mulligan vibes, but there’s no Gerry… hmmm… could it be a tune from this record? I’ve always wondered about this one. https://www.allmusic.com/album/elliot-lawrence-band-plays-gerry-mulligan-arrangements-mw0000190583 If I’m right, I’m overdo to audition this.

Correct on all counts!

Edited March 17 by mjzee

[felser]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

@felser The theme of this BFT is sax players Joe can’t pick out of a crowd. Woody Shaw vibes once the full band arrives. It’s the darkness in the chord progression I suppose, the quartal harmony stuff all over. Sounds more like Charles Tolliver than Woody though. Is this the drummer’s date? They’re playing like it under the trombone solo. Maybe it’s the sax player’s date - quite an entrance! This almost sounds like John Gilmore, but I don’t think it is. Is the ending to that solo anticlimactic, though? I don’t think so - I just think this is a player who swerves a lot. Nope; it’s the drummer’s record for sure.

Thoroughly enjoyed this and looking forward to learning who's playing what!

Not the drummer's date, but he makes a "special guest appearance" on this cut,and is very esteemed, so he is certainly "featured".  Not Shaw or Tolliver, but I get where you're coming from, and agree the vibe leans more Tolliver than Shaw. Tenor player is not Gilmore, but is actually one of the few I can pick out of a crowd (in general, you are much better at ID's than I am).  And yes, he swerves a lot!  This cut has been ID'd, and makes plenty of sense coming from me following the ID.

[tkeith]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

@tkeith Some players with a sense of humor. Roswell Rudd on trombone… feels a bit more controlled and traditionally virtuosic to be Rudd, but the spirit of Rudd is there. Now, that did not go where I thought it was going to after the head, which was rather Ornette-like. Now it’s almost high life. Is this Charlie Burnham on violin? Liking the call and response between the two leads.

Not Roswell, but certainly descended from that school -- ID'd by JSngry as Ray Anderson.  Not Charlie Burnham.

[JSngry]

Thom Keith ID-ed Joe's cut. 

[JSngry]

@Joe a very particular kind of swing indeed! The drummer has been identified, but the rest of the rhythm section has not. It's a perhaps unlikely group and if the drummer is the driver of that bus, the others are perfectly in sync, which was not necessarily a given! 

[Joe]

15 hours ago, Joe said:

 

@DrJ I’m down with this tempo and approach to groove. The tune is tantalizing me. Coltrane… "Crescent," jeez, how could I not hear that! Clever how the lyrics circle back to that reference. Dave Liebman on soprano maybe? Not sure this player’s tone has the same body as Liebman, but the conception stakes me as similar. Most impressed by the rhythm section, which is especially locked in and responding to each other during the piano solo.

 

Correction: NOT Trane. It finally came to me that this is based on Wayne's "Deluge," from JUJU. Man, the familiarity of that line was bothering me!

[Dan Gould]

@Joe Sangrey ID'd the tenor soloist. I hesitate to give hints out otherwise.

[Joe]

15 hours ago, JSngry said:

@Joe a very particular kind of swing indeed! The drummer has been identified, but the rest of the rhythm section has not. It's a perhaps unlikely group and if the drummer is the driver of that bus, the others are perfectly in sync, which was not necessarily a given! 

Well, now that I'm seeing who the tenor is, I'm guessing this is a Verve date, meaning Ray Brown on bass. Probably Herb Ellis on guitar. Piano and drums, though... It's not OP, and I can't see OP being a good fit for a Jacquet date. Could that be Jimmy Jones? He made a lot of Verve dates during this era, and the comping here is in a Jones bag harmonically. Those bombs the drummer is dropping during Eldridge's solo... Louie Bellson? certainly a drummer with some significant big band experience. As in, he knows how to make a small combo as dynamic as a larger band. The more I listen, the more his work here impresses. If this is a big band drummer, I'm, thinking Basie, Jo Jones, but more by logic than ear. Whoever it is: 5 stars.

18 hours ago, tkeith said:

Not Roswell, but certainly descended from that school -- ID'd by JSngry as Ray Anderson.  Not Charlie Burnham.

But of course! This must be from an Anderson record I don't know (or own). Very curious now!

19 hours ago, felser said:

Not the drummer's date, but he makes a "special guest appearance" on this cut,and is very esteemed, so he is certainly "featured".  Not Shaw or Tolliver, but I get where you're coming from, and agree the vibe leans more Tolliver than Shaw. Tenor player is not Gilmore, but is actually one of the few I can pick out of a crowd (in general, you are much better at ID's than I am).  And yes, he swerves a lot!  This cut has been ID'd, and makes plenty of sense coming from me following the ID.

Ah, I now see that a trumpet player from a recent BFT strikes again. And esteemed guest indeed.

Edited March 18 by Joe

[JSngry]

@Joe Ray Brown & Herb Ellis it is! Jimmy Jones as well.

As for the drummer trust your logic 😀

[webbcity]

Way behind as always, but I did finally get to listen, and here are my notes made as I did so...

Track 1 @DrJ - I like the feel right off the bat, rhythm section is right in the pocket. Oh wow, this is a Wayne tune... with vocals! I like the vocalist a lot, and the soprano is great too. Excellent solo. I think I might like the pianist even more-- a very fluid and well-constructed piano solo there. Great group overall and I'm really curious who this is.

Track 2 @Dan Gould - This one is not really my taste... a bit too slick and overproduced. Obviously a very tight band, well-recorded, but it doesn't reach me. The tenor player brings a little heat. Rhythm section definitely locked in. Just not my bag.

Track 3 @JSngry - Woooo, that tenor sound! Oh man, I know this tune but I'm not gonna remember the name now. This is groovin. The sound of the recording is making me think it's someone who has been around for a bit, and this is perhaps later in their career? But the playing is outstanding and on point. Fantastic tenor solo. Is there a guitar comping in there too? Or are my ears deceiving me? And there goes the trumpet player, zoinks! What a sound.

Track 4 @felser - A nice gospel intro, and the band are in the same spiritual space. Oh, I like it even more once the head kicks in. This one is right up my alley. Love that pianist! Wow. Is it the piano player's date? Man, that drummer is going nuts. Trumpet solo also a winner. And holy trombone sound! What are these guys on? The tenor player is killing it. Man! What a group this is. Now I'm wondering if maybe it's the drummer's date? Ralph Peterson? Whoever it is, wow!

Track 5 @mjzee - This one has a very Ellington sound to me, from the start. I love the feel and those spare piano clinks. Nice ensemble playing and a great arrangement. The tenor player is thoughtful and has an amazing sound. Trumpet solo is slightly less interesting to me, but followed by some great (if brief) trombone and piano work. Great track!

Track 6 @medjuck - Great groove. The tune itself feels a little underdeveloped to me, or maybe just not my favorite. Alto player is not quite my taste either, sounds a little too "refined" or polished and I'm not hearing a story. The rhythm section continues to be great but this one never gets off the ground for me somehow.

Track 7 @tkeith - Reminiscent of Abdullah Ibrahim from the get-go, in terms of the tune. I like the emphasis on the trombone and violin... so of course I immediately have to think Billy Bang. But we're barely started here, hang on... ok, I'm sure you've played this one for me. Doesn't mean I'll get it though! Definitely not Billy Bang. But this trombone player is ON FIRE. Fantastic track. Love the feel and the energy. Can't wait to learn who I forgot this was. 😄

Track 8 @Joe - Boy I feel like I've heard this one before too. Classic sound and feel. Now that is some nice syrupy tenor playing! Excellent. The piano solo is *really* catching my ear though. Talk about perfect. That was damn tasty. Ohhhh man, now the trombonist is talking to me big time. Like, literally saying something. Love this. And the trumpet answers! Now this is the one person I can ID-- that is absolutely Clark Terry and he is sounding as amazing as ever here. Clarinet solo is almost a let down after that! But OK. This is outstanding.

Track 9 @mikeweil - Love the percussion and the wordless vocals pretty much immediately. And then I like the way the piano and other instruments creep in. Oh wow! A Night in Tunisia. Was not expecting that change. This is really cool. Whoever this is, I DIG the scatting. I find there are relatively few people who can pull that off, but hell yes to this. Damn good! Excellent solos from the tenor & piano too. Really enjoying this all the way around.

Track 10 @Ken Dryden - Oh wow! I am blanking on the name of this tune but I give huge props to them for this treament. Very cool! It sounds like everyone's left the ballgame and they're just having a tremendous jam. Really enjoyed this, and an excellent way to end the BFT!

Thanks all for your efforts, great stuff, and thanks to Dan for putting this all together!