David Ayers

It seems I am also still so young and free that I don't have time to sort my LPs into chronological order. Although I did have time to put them in sleeve covers.

What step would that be? They went further in reducing or eliminating too-direct references to jazz/blues. I'd say too they were more successful in establishing networks of like-minded practitioners and that too put a real motor on the european improv scene.

They are good guys - glad to hear that they were able to sort something out. They have a wonderful store in Soho and a huge and stimulating list of issues on their own label. They are a big player and showed their class when it turned out they had accidentally used the modified cover from the US reissue which turned out not to be part of their license. Meanwhile at least we have established that EMI commissioned recorded paid for and own the so-called Pathe Sessions of the AEC. Despite the protectionist and nationalist rhetoric which has come to dominate this board, we should remember that there is a reason that so many Americans came to work in Europe. The odds and ends of reissues which we are discussing here are insignificant alongside the huge catalogue of issues from the 70s and 80s in particular on European labels. Incidentally I am one of those that basically thinks the European improvisers took the baton from the Americans and took improv the one step further it needed to go. If we want to look at models for what independent labels can be like, look at Black Saint/Soul Note, set their continuous support for Bill Dixon against the reluctance of RCA ever to reissue the work of his they own. Or look at what Hat Art did for Braxton and others. Or the masses of Braxton and CT from Leo. As for european free music, there are more labels than you can count. Take a look at Emanem, Psi and Incus, if you want to know what a blistering programme of reissues plus masses of new work can look like. In the US maybe OKKA has recently done something similar and then only with substantial reference to European musics. Or, even, compare what ECM has done for US music among others - it gets sneered at here but they did fine by the AEC. I could go on but the question as far as jazz recording and reiussuing goes really should be issued from us to you - where the hell have you guys been? Try to keep up!

You got manky toenails? That's just nasty.

Um, your post is #83 so I'll wait for Chuck's #157. In the meantime, so what if it is a needle drop? It is still theirs and it is still in print. They also licensed it to Soul Jazz Records in the UK which is a legitimate business (their shop is in Soho, their own label issues are truly original). We can only wait to see what Chuck will say about that particular issue in post #157. What I think happens here is that the rants against European issues are all about legitimating all the stealing that goes on. So all Europeans are Andorrans and therefore thieves so it is OK to rip and download the music they either stole or took from second rate sources. When Mosaic issue needle drops (as they do) no-one even dreams of criticising them. I think there is a lot of fantasy going on around these questions of legitimacy and scary 'foreign' issues. Sorry Dave. Post #157 in this thread. Oh sorry Paul - in fact, I remembered reading it - just thought I'd tease you......

Les Stances a Sophie was recorded and issued by Pathe-Marconi. That's EMI. I'd like to hear your theory of how they owned it when they made it and issued it but not now.

Um, your post is #83 so I'll wait for Chuck's #157. In the meantime, so what if it is a needle drop? It is still theirs and it is still in print. They also licensed it to Soul Jazz Records in the UK which is a legitimate business (their shop is in Soho, their own label issues are truly original). We can only wait to see what Chuck will say about that particular issue in post #157. What I think happens here is that the rants against European issues are all about legitimating all the stealing that goes on. So all Europeans are Andorrans and therefore thieves so it is OK to rip and download the music they either stole or took from second rate sources. When Mosaic issue needle drops (as they do) no-one even dreams of criticising them. I think there is a lot of fantasy going on around these questions of legitimacy and scary 'foreign' issues.

Well, maybe it is true that the Americans Swinging in Paris issue of this material is a needle drop, I don't know and you don't address the specific point, but it bears the EMI logo and was part of a much-discussed series, so I don't really know why you are slamming it as just a phoney with 'big corporate label EU claims.' That music is owned by EMI, full stop. The issue is legitimate and so I wonder why you don't just buy it instead of questioning its provenance? Maybe Jonathan will consider this a brilliant idea for a reissue, who knows, but in any case here is the EMI version which is in print and cheap: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pathe-Sessions-Art-Ensemble-Chicago/dp/B000065BS0/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1302882887&sr=1-1

John I thought you would have been taking the chance to call for reissue of any titles you list in The Freedom Principle that haven't yet come back as CD! As for the idea of a classic, I agree there are few stone cold classics, and I also think that almost all of what matters is well known. Collectors tend to think much more matters than does, equate scarcity with importance, think in terms of plugging gaps, and in a generous spirit, having learned the pleasures of minor art, mistakenly over-rate all sorts of lesser attainments. I think though there is another kind of classic which might not be part of a straight line development (as with say Coltrane) but which might both (a) incorporate some new or rarely used principles and (2) come off particularly well. This kind of minor classic is spotted around but its nature is that it can be overlooked if the main artists involved are not among the very greatest. There may be just a few titles which should come back for that kind of reason. We don't really need Ellington or Ornette or other heavily exposed artists, even if the titles people want to see are kind of classic (A Drum is a Woman, Crisis). But maybe we need such singular classics as those which Jonathan proposes to reissue, or... well top of my list is New York Art Quartet, Mohawk (Fontana) which I think has the necessary modernist credentials, originality and singularity (well there are a couple of lesser NYAQ records). So to my way of thinking there is a kind of classic like that which is a bit more really than a good date pursued according to established principles and really of a piece with other available work by a particular set of artists. Oh and like a number of things people have mentioned so far Behind the 8 Ball is readily available as an LP and has been for years, and there was a CD in Japan, and there is also a CD from Groove Hut (which people will probably line up to say is illegal whether they know it is or not) combined with Mo Rock... In parenthesis, since one of the criteria is audiophile collectibility, and since jazz audiophiles will in many cases prefer LP to CD, I'd say the existence of a decent LP would rule out the need for CD reissue. As for Les Stances a Sophie (Mr Bagachelles!) you do know it is in print on LP, CD and DVD, don't you...? If all we end up saying here is that we aren't satisfied with the remastering, format or perceived legality (like we know) of titles which are basically well known and easily obtainable then we aren't getting very far.

We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue.

Releases like the Brubeck box are not illegal in the European Union under its current copyright laws, but in the United States with its different copyright laws they are, and since this board is based in the United States Jim, as the owner of the board, can be held responsible for allowing links to releases that are unauthorized in the United States and that's a risk we don't want to take. And by the way, since the material in the Brubeck box is still copyrighted in the United States Concord (Fantasy) and Sony have every right to authorize it or otherwise as far as the United States is concerned. PS yes Hans I know this is the policy - I am asking for a rethink - this is just not the same as using the board to link to downloads/torrents.

The rights on photographs are sytematically ignored on this board too! Get furious everybody!! Seriously, in fact as I pointed out in another thread cover images are now often doctored so as to resemble originals without infringing copyright, so this issue has plainly come up somehow and in some context. As for performing rights, of course the so-called gray labels make a point of saying they have paid that, and maybe they have. In relation to both those issues (of disfigured quotation and avoiding paying composers) it is worth remembering that one reason the tunes on so many hard bop style LPs are so uh unmemorable is that they are hastily composed nothings designed to fit a famous chord sequence, thus avoiding royalties to the composer and earning them for the new 'composer'. Of course why *this* should be is another whole question in the history of copyright, but it is that history people here get bent out of shape about. And of course no-one here has yet turned their righteous anger on Charlie Parker or Lee Morgan for ripping off George Gershwin with their grey market recompositions...

Well, I don't agree. The bebop/bop style is a (dramatic) narrowing of the capabilites of the piano. It says it all that you don't need a fully functioning right hand to play the simple single-note doodles that pass for the substance of a 'piano solo'. Sorry to be blunt.

Well, it all depends how you feel about Manchester, I'm afraid...

OK I need to ask this now - is anyone claiming this release is illegal? It isn't, so why shouldn't this be linked? Once the material is out of copyright Sony have no right to authorise it or otherwise, because it does not belong to them. At all. Why, even, would it be our job here to police things that even Sony cannot be bothered about?

[i'm tired, best I could do]

Good point - I was saying something like this before. In that whole period a lot of US music was issued outside the US, and you're right, the course of jazz at that time must have seemed different with only limited access to the numerous European issues from various labels, but most notably in terms of any kind of modern jazz (whatver that means), these BS/SN issues. In truth, few of these titles (as a proportion of the many issued) have ever settled down to seem like classics to me, but if you consider the chunks of material from that have been boxed so far and bear in mind that there will be some more to come... also things that might not get boxed: early Tim Berne, some Glenn Spearman, Hemphill/Bowie/Mitchell/Abrams/Jarman?(Wadada)Smith, Frank Lowe, John Carter, and lots more really. A big box pulling together all the Chicago stuff would be great.

It would be good to see you there! It's free (I assume) and you can at least amuse yourself by listening to me mangle the french language...

Well, if your hero happens to be me. http://www.ciph.org/activites.php?rub=agenda&date=20110408 18h30-20h30 Salle JA05, Carré des Sciences, 1 rue Descartes, 75005 Paris Ven 25 mars, Ven 8 avr, Ven 17 juin, Ven 24 juin Comment expliquer que, malgré le caractère apparemment anachronique de toute notion d’avant-garde, des philosophes et des critiques s’intéressent à nouveau à cette problématique ? Les avant-gardes appartiennent au passé, leur avènement historique se situe dans l’histoire du XIXe siècle et est lié avec les débuts de l’époque dite « moderniste » et des mouvements révolutionnaires. Au fil du temps cette relation se dénoue ; pourtant, on associe souvent les avant-gardes avec l’esprit de révolution et/ou un mode d’expression « moderniste ». Après le modernisme, on constate l'irruption du « postmodernisme » et on parle parfois d’« altermodernisme ». Quant aux avant-gardes, sont-ils restées dans le passé moderniste ou les néo-avant-gardes ont-elles repris la transmission des messages avant-gardistes ? Dans quel rapport entrent le discours et les théories d’avant-garde avec l’expérience historique avant-gardiste ? L’actualité de ces interrogations entre en correspondance avec la situation de « la crise du cadre », ou – selon les multiples façons de concevoir « le cadre » en question – de la crise « des cadres ». Il s’agit du format représentationnel permettant une modélisation efficace et adéquate d’un monde complexe et changeant. « Le cadre », selon sa focalisation sociale, esthétique, épistémologique, politique, etc., propose des repères d’argumentation critique et de constitution de ces modèles. « La crise du cadre » s’étend à la relation politique, sociale, éthique avec le monde dans la pluralité de ses effets. Le « retour » à la problématique d’avant-garde, si l’on reprend l’expression de Hal Foster (Le retour du réel, 2005), est lié au problème de constitution du champ critique dans la situation actuelle. Dans ce contexte on s’interrogera de nouveau sur le concept et les pratiques d’avant-garde en étant attentif, plus précisement aux moments de reconceptualisation critique dans l’histoire du modernisme et du postmodernisme et leur lien avec des mouvements politiques révolutionnaires. Intervenants : - Vendredi 25 mars : Natalia Smolianskaia : Avant-gardes russes et « crises du cadre » : enjeux de politique sociale et de culture - Vendredi 8 avril : David Ayers (professeur du Modernisme et de la Théorie Critique à l’Université de Canterbury en Angleterre. Son ouvrage le plus récent : Literary Theory : A Reintroduction, Blackwell, 2008. Travaille actuellement sur les effets culturels de la révolution russe en Grande Bretagne) : Littérature et révolution/art et administration - Vendredi 17 juin : Catherine Perret (maitre de Conférences à l'Université Paris Ouest Nanterre La Défense, auteur entre autres de : Walter Benjamin sans destin, Ed. La Différence, Paris, 1992/Bruxelles, Ed. La Lettre volée, 2007 ; Non Compatibles. Une peinture sans qualités, une exposition de Catherine Perret, Ed. Les Presses du réel, Dijon, 2006 ; Olivier Mosset. La peinture, meme, Ed. Ides et Calendes, Lausanne, 2005, en présence de l’artiste Olivier Mosset – témoin privilégié depuis les années soixante, BMPT, de l'évolution des problématiques artistiques contemporaines) : À propos de radicalité : petite histoire de la peinture abstraite dans les années 80 - Vendredi 24 juin : Serge Lorenzo Milan (enseigne à l’Université de Nice Sophia Antipolis en Langue, littérature et civilisation italiennes, rédacteur de la revue électronique en accès libre Les Cahiers de Narratologie. Son ouvrage le plus récent : L’Antiphilosophie du futurisme, propagande, idéologie et concepts dans l’avant-garde italienne, Ed. « L’Âge d’Homme », Lausanne, 2009) : La polémologie du futurisme italien (ou la guerre comme valeur

This one:

Since we seem to get tied up in knots over copyright issues, it's worth noting that the reissuer here does not own either of those images, he has leased one of them. Nor does he own the music, he has leased it. So the copyright owner (in this case Sony) can sue you if you reproduce the artwork - or the music - but the reissuer cannot, it no more belongs to him than to you or to the Andorrans, or to any of the performers or composers. It belongs to Sony/RCA, who will have received a flat sum from the reissuer, and who may or may not owe a small percentage of that sum to the (musical) artist but do not likely owe money to anyone else. Copyright in the compositions is a separate matter. Um, tell me if I am wrong, anybody.

This one is easy. There are three permitted threads on this board. (1) what is the latest unchallenging middlebrow repertoire you just piled up in your beermat collection? (2) Andorra (3) justice for Allen So if I mention here that I recently bought Rollin' with Leo in a legitimate issue (thereby diverting to Parker's estate 10s of 000s of dollars that would otherwise have poured into the otherwise flailing Andorran economy) I will have achieved an effect similar to googling 'google' or combining a proton, neutron and an electron.

Got it, thanks. Yes, they were good. I had imagined some executive being asked to sign off on this release, looking at the title, and going uhhh.

Me as well. And me. We were soooooo close. gregmo What was it halted? Offensive title?