bertrand

Kevin, I actually addressed the issue of authorship of 'Quick Trick' and 'Jimerick' in one of my postings above. I guess it got lost in my non-stop chatter! 'Quick Trick' is by Bobby Timmons. I found the lead sheet at the Library of Congress and it now is sitting in the 'Jazz Copyright Collection' which is slowly being catalogued (by me and others, using a database that was kindly created for this purpose). Even if the session does not come out, I hope one day to convince someone to perform this. I'm pretty sure it has never been recorded elsewhere. I should ask Don Sickler (who publishes Bobby's tunes) if he knows about this piece. 'Jimerick' is a total mystery - no copyright on this one. Based on the title, I suspect it's by Jymie Merritt (although he didn't write anything else for the band). He's still around (although hard to find). If I ever meet him, I'll ask him about it. Bertrand.

Absolutely. Some of the decisions have to be respected. And some have to be ignored. No, I am not actively involved in the music biz as you are, but as a supporter of the music I have the right to have my say. Plus, I have come in contact with some producers out there and listened to what they had to say, and quite frankly, I am underwhelmed by their actual knowledge or understanding of the art form. I certainly wouldn't trust their judgment on what is releasable or not, and I really don't think they even have a clear grasp of the marketability or lack thereof of the product they are pushing or not pushing. Which is irrelevant in the case of Alfred: he clearly had a profound, intuitive appreciation of the music and through his hard work and dedication left us with a wealth of wonderful recordings. But he was not infallible. Similarly, there are many fabulous artists on the label and they more than anyone could judge what they wanted to present to the world and what they did not, but sometimes they were just being too self-critical. Look, I'm not pushing this Blakey session. Despite Jim and Bill's assertion to the contrary, I may decide it's no good if I ever hear it. But I have enough respect for their opinion to know they are not just some mindless, drug-addled college students who think that every note that Mobley ever spewed out was golden. If they think there's something there, then my curiosity is piqued. Bertrand.

Alfred also decided to shelve Wayne Shorter's Etcetera, Jackie McLean's Jacknife, Lee Morgan's The Procrastinator, several Monk performances, several Herbie Nichols tunes, Art Blakey's Roots & Herbs, Grant Green's Solid etc. Are you arguing that at no point should anyone have revisited these decisions of Alfred's? As hinted at in the booklet to the Tina Brooks Mosaic, Alfred sometimes had to make these decisions very fast, and could not always justify them later. Is it really immoral to second guess him thirty years later? Can we really make a final, absolute descision on the quality of a work of art based on a brief exposure to the work? Clearly, Alfred had to make some decisions for purely business reasons (e.g. temporarily shelving Search For The New Land after The Sidewinder was a hit). Does this mean he though Search was not worthy of release? Of course not. Do you really decide after one listen if a record is good or not? I certainly hope not. My point is, no one has claimed that he or she 'deserves' to have this session. They are just wondering if the session might be worth a second listen (based on the opinion of independent observers) before it is relegated to the dustbin of time. Eventually, the tape will be disintegrated and then we missed our chance for good. Just my two cents, but what do I kow. I'm just a schmo who supports jazz musicians with a non-negligible fraction of my income. Bertrand.

Interesting comments so far. I wonder where this thread will go, and I'm sure glad it's not on the old BNBB! That doesn't mean someone in the business is not lurking, of course. Two thoughts come to my mind: 1. Michael Cuscuna has specifically stated that this session is a disaster. I'm surprised to see some of you who have heard all or parts of it think otherwise. Now you have me curious. The question is, how would you guys start lobbying Cuscuna? If you want to avoid disclosing that you've heard the session and just make a general suggestion, you will just get the usual reply that this is not releasable. Remember what happened when we were solicited on the old board for suggestions of unissued sessions for the 60th anniversary series (the series that yielded The Kicker, Drums Around The Corner etc.)? Some of Michael's opinions were brief but to the point. Alternatively, if you decide to 'fess up that you've heard this, how will he react? In any case, it's obvious that Cuscuna can and does change his mind, e.g. the released half of the October 1968 Lee Morgan session with Frank Mitchell, or (more to the point) Passing Ships, which was hailed as a masterpiece last year by a jazz press and a jazz audience starved for some innovative music, no matter how old (that's the topic for another thread). The question is, what would be the best (i.e. most diplomatic) approach to lobby Michael for this session? 2. If I read Chuck's posting correctly (and I aplogize in advance if I am misunderstanding the purpose of his post), I think he is suggesting that we should not always be clamoring for things that are unissued when sessions with similar material are readily available. But I must respectfully disagree in this case. First off, there are few documents of this brief incarnation of the Messengers (Mobley's return after Golson's departure and before Wayne's arrival). Apart from this session and the released live session, I only know of the 1959 Newport appearance which I listened to at the Library of Congress, and which is at least as good as the 2-CD set. Does anyone know any other sessions? I certainly don't think there any other studio dates. So that alone makes this worthy of consideration for release. More importantly, there are two tunes that have not been recorded elsewhere to my knowledge, either by Blakey or anyone else (unless someone with the Lord can prove me wrong). 'Quick Trick' is a Bobby Timmons piece - the copyright deposit lead sheet exists. I sure would like to hear it - hell, it could even be another 'hit'. 'Jimerick' remains a total mystery (there is no copyright). I'm guessing it's by Jymie Merritt based on the title, but that's pure speculation. So, I sure hope someone can find a way to convince Michael to re-think this session. I wonder if Merritt (the only survivor) has an opinion on the matter. He lives in Philly and is somewhat hard to track down, but if Leslie Gourse could do it, anyone can. Bertrand.

I'm not sure I understand the reference to 'Quadrangle' being a bonus track. Jackie previously recorded this tune on Lights Out as 'Inding'. 'Fidel' previously appeared as 'Couldn't It Be You' (credited to McLean and Blakey) on the Messengers RCA date A Night In Tunisia (AKA Theory Of Art), the one on which Jackie is listed as Ferris Bender. Not all three Brooks compositions were left off the original vinyl - 'Isle Of Java' was on it. McLean's 'Melonae's Dance' was missing, however. 'Medina' is the same composition as 'Minor Move'. The BN discography claims that there were two further rejected (and untitled) tracks for the first session. Perhaps these would have been enough to make up an entire album. The second session (which I have read was originally planned to be billed as co-led by Brooks and McLean) was actually enough to make up its own LP. So if those two performances from the first session had been successful, we probably would have seen two separate albums released at the time. As for the music, I find the sextet session to be one of Jackie's absolute masterpieces. The arrangements are fabulous - they really make great use of the presence of the three horns (listen to the head of 'Medina' or the entire 'Ballad For Doll' to see what I mean). This one is so good, I'm thinking of getting the RVG (even though I have the older version) just to see if I can hear anything new. Bertrand.

I just thought of something. Are these Miles boxes on itunes? This way, I could buy the individual CDs and just buy the extra tracks from itunes (for the 60s quintet box, for example). Bertrand.

Well, we're two hours away and I haven't heard back so I guess no one can go. I'm 90% sure I will not be going, but there's still hope. Bertrand.

I'm with Mike on this too, but I still want to see those lead sheets! I found a copyright number for all tunes except 'Barcelona', so we should be able to get an independent confirmation by process of elimination. Bertrand.

Mike, I see your point about the liner notes, and I will ignore them completely. I think your composer credits in the posting above may be incorrect. I did a search at www.loc.gov and found EU copyright numbers for 'Prints Tie', 'Ummh' and 'Procession' under Hutcherson's name. The All Music Guide listing (which of course we can't really trust) also has 'Ummh' by Bobby; they say the second Sample tune is 'Goin' Down South', which makes sense, since you say it is on another Crusaders record. OK, off to the Library of Congress to see if I can find EU numbers for the Sample tunes and the Land piece. I can send a request for all this over the week-end, and if all goes well, I'll have lead sheets to look at next Friday and compare (using my limited piano skills) to the CD which I can copy to my new ipod - this gives me a good reason to actually try to learn how to use this thing before next week! Bertrand.

Actually, this might help me get started (i.e., I may go to the Library of Congress real quick at lunch). What are the composer credits for each piece on the CD? I'll also check AMG. If anyone can post this by 1 PM EST, that would help. Bertrand.

This is getting really interesting. Mike made one unimpeachable point that track # 3 on the CD matches the tune called 'Jazz' on the Crusaders album (I believe him, but I have not checked out the soundbite yet to confirm). On the other hand, as Dr. J points out, the instrumentation described in the liners vs. the audible instrumentation should give some clues as well; I'm sure Mike was working with that as well. When I first posted this and Dr. J provided his track listing, I was pretty much convinced after reading the liners. But the thing about track # 3 definitely being 'Jazz' throws me off, so I need to revisit this. 'Procession' was also recorded (but rejected) for the Spiral/Medina sessions. Perhaps other pieces appear elsewhere as well (the Lord CD-ROM should answer that quickly). One way to settle this would be to try to get in touch with Hutcherson, Sample and Cuscuna. I will also try to see if I can dig up some copyright deposits. As we have seen in another thread on Mobley (e.g. the 'Soft Impressions'/'Chain Reaction' controversy), this may not settle things for sure, but it might help. To be continued... Bertrand.

Charles Tolliver Big Band (could still happen). Old And New Dreams (too late now). Bertrand.

billyboy, And that's why I was wondering if the sessions would come out individually as well (especially Berlin and Tokyo). I buy very few box sets (mostly Mosaics, of which have 7 or 8 - a lot less than other board members). Here are some reasons, some of which apply even to Mosaics, although I'm mostly thinking about the Miles Columbia boxes: 1. The packaging is often horrible (glue on the Miles Columbia boxes, CDs hard to get out withough breaking, illegible booklets, rust) 2. The price is high: $17 or $18 per CD; on sale, Miles CDs are usually $8.99 or even $7.99 3. The track order is often the recording order; therefore all 7 alternates come one after the other, and you might get three ballads in a row. A lot of jazz LPs were sequenced in a certain way for a reason. 4. You don't get the original album covers. Some people may not care about these things (especially 3 and 4), but I do. The main plus of box sets is to get some tracks that may never appear individually elsewhere. Often, though, these tracks are throw-aways. I did buy the Bitches' Brew and Silent Way sets because there was enough extra material that did not appear elsewhere. However, I bought the 60s quintet stuff in individual CDs. I'm only missing a few tunes, mostly rehearsal takes. Bertrand.

I don't usually pre-order stuff (what's the rush?), but I may make an exception: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...product-details Bertrand.

Mike, A couple of comments for the Wayne Shorter part of your listing. 1. Two pieces are in the new book (without an asterisk) that you did not mention in your listing of Wayne compositions from the old book: 'Fall' and 'Mysterious Traveller' (I assume it's Wayne's 'Fall'). 2. You mentioned that 'Mr. Jin' had been dropped; it is not in your listing of missing songs beginning with 'M'. Bertrand.

A general comment. Although I agree with Mike in theory that the real book should only be a starting point, in practice, I see it used all the time at jam sessions, and I have to admit, this bothers me less than the alternative, which is to hear the same tired standards over and over because these are the only tunes that everyone knows without using the book. At least the real book has some fairly obscure pieces in it (like most of those Wayne Shorter compositions listed above). On one hand, I should shut up because I am not a musician, but on the other hand, I am a paying customer, so I should have some opinion of what is played. I stopped going to jam sessions because of this, and only started again because it's something laid back enough that I can bring my 4-year-old to. And even he has grown tired of some tunes Bertrand.

Thanks Mike! That was quick. It also looks like the spelling for 'Dolores' and the title for 'Yes And No' match the copyrights in the Hal Leonard book, but not in the old real book. Bertrand.

A couple of Wayne Shorter questions related to this new 'legal' Real Book. 1. Are there any Wayne Shorter compositions that were in the illegal book that are not in this one (I guess they could show up in volume 2)? Conversely, any Wayne pieces that are in the legal book that were not in the illegal book? 2. Is E.S.P. still credited to Miles as it was in the illegal book, or has it been corrected? Wayne is sole composer of this piece, according to the copyright deposits. 3. The illegal book had a piece called 'Black Diamond' credited to Roland Kirk. Is this in fact Wayne's composition from Introducing, or is it a different Kirk piece that I'm not aware of? Who is credited as composer in the legal book? 4. Someone once showed me a fake/real book that they had which included a Wayne piece called 'Message From Sol'. This blew my mind, because that piece (copyrighted in 1960) has never been recorded, at least not under that title. This piece is not in the new legal book. Was it in the illegal book? Does anyone know which book it was in? Thanks in advance, Bertrand. P.S.: I just read Mike's second post about the alphebitization thing. I remember a hilarious passage in a Peter DeVries novel where the character went nuts going through a songbook when he saw a listing in the index for 'Camptown Races, De'.

Interesting idea for an article. I think you should definitely discuss the last Lee Morgan session (the one where he's wearing that hideous blue suit). It is a unique animal in his discography, and may (or may not) indicate where he was going. And you can't get a more unexpected death. Even the woman who shot him was surprised. Bertrand.

Can anyone help me find the song listing for this new real book (sixth edition). I'm drawing a blank with google. Thanks, Bertrand.

Upping this only because now I'm not so sure I can go - my wife is sick, so I may have to hang out with my son that night. I'm still trying to go, so if you are interested at all send me a PM with a phone number to reach you on Friday - I'll know at the last minute. If I can't make it, but you want a coupon, maybe I can somehow get that to you depending on where you are on Friday. Bertrand.

Quote from Dennis Hastert: 'I don't know how David Ayers made his first billion. I [we] umhhh ... umhhh. [We] I really don't know. I'm not saying he has an in with drug dealers. I don't know if he always takes advantage of that 'win 100 euros if you're the first to review this CD' from amazon.fr. I just don't know'. Bertrand.

I loved that series. I remember buying about 15 in one week-end, something I usually never do. There were some titles that were gone real fast (Delightfulee). I was out of town on business on the Tuesday they came out, and when I came back on Friday, I had to hunt all over D.C. In Blue Note's defense, a lot of the hard-to-find titles are now appearing as RVGs. Without wanting to start the sound quality topic again, some of them have real wierd sound. Bertrand.

Lon, Thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing what tunes are on the Japanese CD. Bertrand.

Brandon, Sorry the Library of Congress didn't pan out - the government is notoriously slow, and they lose a lot of good people by dragging thier feet. Stanford comes out the winner. When is your last day? Let's try to get together before you leave. Bertrand.