MomsMobley

How about answering the questions? So Werner gave X Artist Y _____ $$$ when to do what? Do the artists ever earn back these costs? Who? When? And then what? Hard to earn your way out of 'debt' for a product that's not available, isn't it? Or are all these records pressed once and gone forever-- or until he 'feels' its OK to put out again? That's nonsense, especially when Lufthansa or Swiss Bank or whomever was footing the bill. How is it New World's two great Cecil Taylor have pretty much always been available and Hat's disappear faster than my hair and come back even more slowly? There's an implicitly exploitative relationship going on here because while Werner X. continued to build his brand/legacy, VERY important works of numerous artists first barely existed and then disappeared. Granted, Werner X. had all kinds of distribution issues to contend with but so did everyone else. Just becaue it's 'jass' doesn't mean these people are unlimited founts of creativity (far from it, usually) so seeing that shit go down the black hole of history to the point ya'll are even thinking of paying TOP $$$ for used copies is ridiculous. A ** TRULY ** generous man concerned about world musical culture would GIVE Joe McPhee all his recordings back; Anthony, Cecil etc etc. (The classical ensemble stuff is a little trickier.) Is there a reason this hasn't been done or-- to my knowledge-- hasn't been contemplated? I'm not saying I'm right but I damn well want some answers before giving Hat any wampum. Support BIS records also, which keeps its ENTIRE catalog available.

Dear David and C-mice, Fret not, I'll GIVE ya'll copies of Willisau gratis so long as you don't support Werner's crackpot 'management' of his back catalog without polite protest. Give the money to Tony directly, I'm sure he'd do something more useful than what Werner "might" do "someday." Not taking away from his accomplishments (though does the world need more Ellery Eskelin anything, really?) but for whose benefit are ALL Hat's John Cage recordings oop ALL or nearly so Hat's Morton Feldman recordings oop Christian Woolf, New York School, Joe McPhee etc etc... Q1: who owns the rights to these recordings, Hat or the artists? Q2: what were the artists paid to record, and what are/were their accounting/royalty schedules? Q3: is there ANY reason besides intransigent ego that large chunks of the Hat catalog should not be reissued as is now occurring with Black Saint/Soul Note? NO CECIL NO PEACE! NO CECIL NO PEACE! NO CECIL NO PEACE! Q4: sincer Wener was playing with a significant amount (if not "a lot" in larger economic sense), other people money before, is not his stubbornness on this issue a little strange? If you're interested in orange and grey Euro jazz sure, wait around for Werner's tarot to come up aces... If you care about music/culture, support a label like MODE which does great work AND keeps their entire catalog available for OOP items as FLAC + .pdf. I just might cave one day and drop the $150 people want for Willisau. $150? I want $1000 for mine. I'd pay $150 just for a second copy...

how about some of ya'll actually catching up with Jones/Baraka, if you're going to get so irritated by his pip-squeaking 50 years ago? it isn't too difficult-- http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520265820 and while Baraka ain't 100% right-- far from it sometimes-- he's a writer who has done excellent work in poetry, prose, drama and criticism. yes, his HISTORY was and still can be lacking but rarely moreso than other knuckleheads the jazz polis tolerates from insipid Whitney Balliett (who writes as if social history barely existed, a huge lie of omission) onward. the excellent How I Became Hettie Jones http://www.amazon.com/How-I-Became-Hettie-Jones/dp/0802134963 explains a lot as as Professor Allen Lowe noted, though I thought he dropped out of class with Trummy Young!!

what a joke!! and i recall some people getting all 'upset' when some folks questioned the sanctity of Ahmet, who had NO PROBLEM with decades of limousine lifestyle starfu**ing (beyond what business needs he had, i.e. of course a CEO hangs with the 'elite' not hoi polloi) on the back of folks-- black, white, other-- saddled with knowingly exploitative contracts. how about some bones for * Alcorn State, Jackson State, Mississippi Valley State, Rust College Tougaloo College * Bethune-Cookman University, Edward Waters College, Florida A&M University, Florida Memorial University * Haskell Indian Nations U in Lawrence, KS I'll cut Neshui some slack, hoping at least he'd know better but these other Erteguns are shameless.

I'm STRONGLY against the use of anachronistic terminology in historical narrative; it only confuses things further. you start calling everyone "African-American" or whatever BEFORE such a term existed and it obscures the gradients of written (or reported oral) language and their myriad meanings implied by each usage. This is especially telling in mid-to-late 19th century (i.e. antebellum rumblings to post-Reconstruction withdrawals) but the idea is the same any time. thus it is VERY interesting-- and telling-- to know who at what time and from what source is "negro," "colored" or "black." Pullman's momomania might have its virtues-- I dunno-- but he prob should have read a lot more Douglass, Chesnutt, DuBois, Quarles, John Hope Franklin, Baldwin etc before pretending to be a philosopher of language too. p/s: "Ethiopian delineators" The refusal of the university press he had a contract with to accept those coinages was among the chief reasons he left them and decided to publish to book himself. Pullman would say (indeed, IIRC, has said) that his desire to change common usage (or at least make it clear where he himself stands politically on this topic) was essential to the whole project. He does, after all, again IIRC, see prevailing racial assumptions-attitudes, etc. impinging directly and perniciously on Powell's life throughout, and no doubt feels that it would be morally wrong for him to step back from the present-day consequences-implications of that view, as though that socio-political "story" effectively ended with Powell's death. Rather, he wants to make those connections to the present unavoidable.

i take it thru "Royal Jam" and still keep "Scratch" on the radar hoping I can blow that goddamn "Eleanor Rigby" cover out of their discography once and for all. If I could eliminate all versions from the world I would but I'll settle for this. The ** variations ** are swell but the fucking theme was, is and always shall be loathsome. And yeah yeah, I understand why but I still don't like it. Zaire on the other hand-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZiNRgOHoO0

http://www.amazon.com/Digging-Afro-American-American-Classical-Diaspora/dp/product-description/0520265823/

hold on... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zgzy7NlIQM when it all comes down... gotta admit 'rural renewal' doesn't suck either... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6cGHHjr2E

Joseph Holbrooke was an estimable composer; naming the trio that might be as much refutation as homage to his formalism but then Holbrooke himself gets chided for alleged formal transgressions (compared to what, Bach?) so who knows. It's likely both. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67127 most everyone except George Lewis (trombone) completists can live without the Company recordings BUT... the Company Week etc project has greater social-artistic significance than the mostly footnote-worthy musical results. Mo' Holbrooke, chamber this time-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CHSZrGXgB0 Karyobin is OOP on CD and fetches a hefty price these days. I don't think Emanem were able to get the rights from Island to reissue it so the old Chronoscope disc (am told that wasn't legit, but...) is about all there is (short of paying a mint for a battered original LP, which seems to be par for the course vinyl-wise). Too bad it's so hard to find because it's one of the great SME documents, for sure. I'm with Jeff on the Company stuff - sometimes brilliant, sometimes boring but always of value.

never saw this Sly before-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ptrc2cWRxU violin solo!

thanks. i would have thought so, for the reason you state. and while 'blues purist' dorks denigrate those ABC sides, i do not. ALL the B.B.'s have more hot moments than dull; knuckleheads don't want to admit he was a great soul singer too and there was no reason except age he couldn't be down with the gritty side of contempo R&B. some of the material ain't all it could be but it's totally valid effort, likewise B.B.'s country soul masterpiece, "Love Me Tender." "Soul Train" worthy jam-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gxFsX1kMkM Better Not Look Down!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNAZ68zwtvI

B.T. Express (+ Carlos Ward, soprano)-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4rd7I0Q75o Q: were Bobby Bland or B.B. King ever on Soul Train?

Please do-- I'm still skeptical but haven't read all German literature. I'm also not with my Brahms lied disc but don't see any evidence here-- Brahms's Song Collections Researching The Song: A Lexicon Liszt and R. Strauss used Lenau texts yes but... Moms' incipient menopause might explain it.

Note also Sam's virtuosity (on reeds)-- one should NEVER say "effortless" virtuosity because he worked his ass off-- in any number of settings and compare it to X, Y, Z younger "free" "improv" "composer" schmoes who 1) have mediocre at best technique on all their horns 2) have no original compositional ideas 3) aren't even good pasticheurs Then there are the technically able blowhards with a bounteous collections of jazz hats who couldn't PLAY something interesting if their entire "tribute" discographies depended on it. Gentleman tooters like Sam, Roscoe, nearly all of Braxton (a few of those standards/homage sets are disposable, half-baked) prove in abundance there are other ways. SIZZLE! Anyone ever hear of tapes of Sam's gigs with T-Bone Walker (unlikely) or Dizzy (which must be out there)?

I believe you were misinformed; Brahms owned volumes of Lenau poetry but never set it. Schumann Sechs Gedict von N. Lenau you know, of course; there was in the late '90s/early '00s a Czezslaw Marek revival of sorts-- his Fünf Lenau-Lieder is out there somewhere. I have not heard nor read Albert Moeschinger's TWO Lenau cycles but if so inclined--> http://www.musinfo.ch/index.php?content=maske_personen&pers_id=177&setLanguage=en

good look on Panken, 7/4. And lest anyone doubt how truly-- extremely-- hip Sam was artistically AND historically, note this-- TP: Was your father born in Cincinnati? SR: No, he was born in Boston. After I got out of the Service during the Forties… When I entered the Navy, I was one of the first who didn’t go in as a musician or a steward. Robert Smalls and I went in as regular Navy men. We had a choice of whatever field we wanted to go into, Bosuns, Mates… I chose music when I went in, but the band they wanted to put me in wasn’t good. I’m very young and arrogant, so I said, “No, I’ll learn something else.” So I went in as Quartermaster, correcting charts and steering the ship and all that, but I never went on board ship. I knew I wasn’t going on board if I took something like that. I was transferred to Vallejo, California, which was my musical experience. It was very good I didn’t go into the band, because the band had to play in the officers quarters every night. I wasn’t in the band, so I could take my horn and go out into the city and play. Vallejo is near San Francisco. That’s where I met Jimmy Witherspoon. One of my first professional gigs was with Jimmy Witherspoon while I was in the Navy. We were playing at this club someplace in Vallejo where he was everything. He was the Master of Ceremonies, he was the maitre’d, he was the comedian and he was the singer, and I was part of the group. That’s pretty much the playing I did when I was in the Navy. *** I wouldn't expect foreign readers to know Robert Smalls but how many Americans reading this do? Sam DID. And I don't even "blame" Americans so much as the goddamn system that raised them-- and later consigned Robert Smalls to obscurity.

A GIANT! And one whose life, career and artistic legacy shames that of many many lesser lights we're supposed to mourn. And to think a sept- then octogenarian-- did it without resorting to jive "tribute" albums! That Sam could kill on "A New Conception" AND "Into Somethin'" AND do all the other tremendous things he did from solo to trio to big bang is staggering. Only his near-contemporary Jaki Byard approaches that range and Jaki had a harder time of it after the 1960s. adopted hometown Orlando Sentinel obit (where I saw the big band 5-6 times (had to leave early once))-- http://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/music/os-sam-rivers-dead-122711-20111227,0,7009901.story unless even a little flute is too much, Sam's disocgraphy is damn near flawless-- only sides I can think of being even slightly lesser is that Reggie Workman on Postcards (which I recall sounded like crap-- is that correct?-- a shame because you can't say enough great things about Reggie otherwise) and the Jason Moran tho' Sam does sure ELEVATE the proceedings. The Miles sides are OK but no better-- dudes were "beyond" each other in unsympathetic ways though props to Anthony for trying. Everybody's seen this right, Holland (before he was boring)/Barker/Rivers-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J83DsYQJ_D0

within certain bounds-- '60s big band-- yes, it's continually inventive, superbly realized; go back to "Dilemma" especially. which i'll rate that as hot as any Jones/Lewis chart (say) even without Billy Harper present to elevate it. Ray Reed (alto) and Jay Daversa are themselves especially impressive. whether or not certain ideas repeated-- but isn't that "style" too? how many Riddle/May/Paich/Nelson charts could we cut/paste on different tunes? who says we need "go" anywhere? this goes back to classical dialectic of "thematic development" versus "sound" btw. if it's a hair pie, YOU are the filling! Masterpiece? Really? I've had that one for about 40 years now, and it's pretty much the same handful of somewhat slight ideas over and over. He makes it all "sound good", but there's a not a whole helluva lot of filling in that pie. As many as there need to be. Maybe more! Also, as Konitz' time with the band goes on, you can hear the changes in his tone...it gets harder and brighter. Don't know if that was by choice, out of necessity, or a bit of both. Lennie said it (Konitz' tone) was "ruined", and I can see why he would think that, but hell, Lee would go on to play with the Varitone, so, so much for that!

lesser known (?), later Kenton masterpiece: Plays The Compositions of Dee Barton-- http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Compositions-Barton-Stan-Kenton/dp/B000RPCEQQ I can't speak on the alleged differences between vinyl and cd masters but the latter sounds fine; I knew Barton's work with Eastwood but not really followed it back. Q: how many accomplished trombonist/drummer/composers are there? Also, the great importance and achievement of Kenton + X, Y, Z is his insistence on the potentialities of jazz composition + musicianship: that Braxton could get endless inspiration from Kenton is plain; that listeners experienced in 20th c. classical idioms are more likely to be interested in this than pop/rock people is also self-evident. Villa Lobos lives! Also, re: the great Johnny Richards, Adventures In Time is a mind-fuck, still http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Time-Orchestra-Stan-Kenton/dp/B000005H8M Is it still LOUD also? Sometimes. It's a climax!

Bird was a Kenton admirer too. Hajdu-- though he's had better moments among the worse-- is often an idiot; check out his inane moralizing in the Dylan/Farina/Baez book for ample evidence. Stan Kenton-- or the Kenton Project, if you will-- is fantastic, a high point of American popular ** and ** art music 1940-196x... not sure when the cut off point is yet. For * Pete Rugolo * Bill Holman * Bill Russo * Johnny Richards * Lennie Niehaus * Bob Graettinger * Gene Roland (whom I had the pleasure of meeting in the late '70s) alone Kenton would be a giant; that he supported ALL of those and dozens upon dozens of terrific-- sometimes brilliant-- musicians-- is astonishing. The anti-intellectual criticism of Kenton is nauseating but plainly ignorant-- is everything by Stravinsky, Hindemith, Schoenberg, Ellington equally achieved, even given vagaries of performance practice? But it is nearly all interesting, though I think we can agree the jazz/pop guys spun their wheels more than composers had to because exigencies of gigs, radio, records, show biz... So perhaps Milhaud is better comparison. Kenton/Christy "Duet" is no small masterpiece either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftypZJpZ_Kw

Steve-- I didn't but someone damn sure should have. For a guy-- for a native Philadelphian, long-time New Yorker who's spent how many decades butchering Bud and Monk, the vast vast VAST majority of his sidemen have all-- ah, isn't this rather interesting-- been of a certain range of complexions? maybe it was coincidence. maybe it was cultural empathies. maybe there aren't any black or latin or _____ folk-- young, avant-, inside/out or otherwise-- whom he could have hired. that's "fine": white music is music too but please don't be surprised that a certain # of people ** noticed **. and for the record, Wynton's Monk is as bad or worse than Motian's so it's not a race thing re: interpretive nous. maybe after black Texicans Dewey Redman and Charles Brackeen there was nowhere to go but down? yet he made a jillion records with Lovano? so much for mentorship! (Or George Clinton's "Mothership.") i'm not proposing any answers but you gotta be deaf, dumb & blind not to ask the questions.

would you care toe elaborate TTK? i'll listen but right now i don't hear it-- and still have to turn off WKCR when the horrible Lovano/Frisell group comes on. as I said, Pau Motian was a terrific musician but, unless one really means it (one might), it's silly to pretend every direction he went in was a worthwhile one, except, presumably, to him and the musicians he hired. and again, that Monk "tribute" (travesty) is utterly loathsome on every level, the drummer/bandleader's included. to read this thread, however, you'd think Motian was the white Baby Dodds, Jo Jones, Max Roach, Ed Blackwell all-in-one.

Terrific drummer, sometimes ** HIGHLY ** questionable bandleader. Granted, dude has to work but how you go from Charles Brackeen and David Izenzon to... ...effin' Lovano & Frisell (& speaking of Monk, that group's Monk album is TERRIBLE-- Paul included-- I dunno. Besides the Brackeen sides, I'll put on some Bley or Liberation Music Orchectra to remember.

workman like musicians are fine-- if they are workmen, as i said: section player, reliable gig making, pleasant enough personality, etc. also younger musicians figuring stuff out or local, regional players providing some % simulacra of the ultimate, rare thing... live music making has its own set of conditions, critical parameters but we're talking RECORDS, and one's life as Listening Artist. clearly and at often painful length, Rouse is in no way up to the implicit and explicit demands of Monk's concepts; this is everywhere painfully evident. I ** DARE ** anyone spin "Monk In Tokyo"-- or the horrideous Keepnews-ance version of "Straight No Chaser"-- and not wanna hide all Rouse's mouthpieces & reeds and put on an Eddie Miller, Sam Butera or Billy Harper record instead. (Billy is Overlooked Giant of course.) also please listen, by comparison, to nearly any performance of Hugo Wolf "Goethe Lieder" and/or read the score. cornpone anti-intellectual sports obsessives will likely cry "Foul!" but those of us deeply interested in the myriad forms of compositional genius can both hear/see the (coincidental) links between Wolf and Monk, Monk and Wolf. Some have compared Monk's sense of compositional compression to Webern but there I disagree. The hyper-aware play of voices (try also Wolf "Italienesches Liederbuch")-- hot damn! Charlie Rouse is great for piss breaks but otherwise, in the wide world of music that anyone with a library card or posting to an internet message board now has access to, his dreary bleating is less "necessary" than ever and no "better" than it ever was.

ah but Jeff is not that how it nearly is? there's nothing wrong with being gigging musician, a section player, a performer of trauermusik-- but would you ever say Rouse was even half the musician Robin Trower? is such speculation what our cratered culture of affluence has led us to? I'm staying out of the drums thing though yes Ben Riley has issues but the point is, contrary to the original poster, Rouse doesn't "make" Monk's music in any way except nearly fucking intolerable. And ** NO ** other contemporary of Monk's did that, that I'm aware of. I'm sure some ** did **, natch, but I haven't heard those records or tapes. But the scarcity of their suck isn't reason to NOT recognize Rouse brings ** nothing ** unique to the table but undemanding reliability (which ** is ** important, professionally, esp. given the Monk's matrix of 'issues.') had i more time and razor blades i could edit Monk session tapes-- remove Rouse-- 'punch in' in solos by x, y, z over whatever Monk auto-comping-- and there we are-- no need to suffer, no need to pretend. Charlie Rouse is the greatest symptom of Monk's decline as a composer, conceptualist. That sometimes, in a flash of self-recrimination, he blazed the fuck out of that self-inflicted musical torpor ** can ** briefly reaffirm one's faith in Our Hero but then comes another cloud of goddamn Charlie Rouse spittle-- don't get any on you, please!! there is no antidote. Lark-- Mal can make almost anyone "listenable," dramatically, because you wanna hear more Mal and he teases you (something Rouse-- and dreary auto-tooter Sonny Stitt are nearly incapable of-- but you get way more bounce to Curtis Counce! compare Buell Niedlinger "Jackie-Ing" to any version with Rouse and tell me who got it better.