MomsMobley

Albert Warner's Brown Buddies + Albert Jiles Onzaga Owls http://www.amazon.com/Albert-Warners-Brown-Buddies-Onzaga/dp/B0000061SY

there are handfuls of 'romantic' Bach and baroque performances that bring their own important musicality, interpretation to the table but a bum like Starker is absolutely NOT one of them; the Mercury cult and all attendant hype/advertising led to the vomitous RCA Starker which-- hah hah funny-- approximately three erstwhile Starker "fans" ever cite despite its purported "maturity," "sublimity," "purity" of utterance etc. There's about 1000x more music AND sound AND life AND laughter, sex, coffee, beer etc in Bach than Starker (or Paul Casals, or Edwin Fischer or, later, the vile Roslyn Tureck etc) could ever imagine. That said, Mengelberg's St Matthew is worth hearing once, likewise the Bm mass conducted by Enesco-- himself a brilliant composer, of course. Karl Richter's Bach passions and cantatas, though well-intentioned, are mostly dreck and Klemperer's-- wow. Let's just say if you like his "Fidelio" and "Flying Dutchman," his Bach is something ELSE indeed. J.A.W., do you know the Olivier Beaumont F. Couperin box on Erato? Very very nice, excellent bargain too-- http://www.amazon.com/Couperin-Complete-Harpsichord-Olivier-Baumont/dp/B000OCZ7WK/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgABGsVZH24 I used to have Rousset back in mid-90s when I went all early music but I don't think it's worth worrying about or looking for until Harmonia Mundi re-issues it.

Feldman was a compulsive bullshit artist-- that's part of his CHARM mind you but the idea that all or even much of his work is "profound" is silly. As Larry Kart says, Morty knew what he was doing and some (lots) of the time it was more interesting to do it than to heat it let alone ponder it. Bonus points for cigarettes and tapestries but the idea that there people who've listened to more Morton Feldman than Fritz Delius or Ferrucio Busoni is absurd and nauseating both.

Mandrill how are you pulling out these Euro label references are you a reader of Classica (OK, not as good as Repertoire was) or Diapason or________ the reason junk like Starker Bach (or Perahia Mozart etc etc) has such misguided respect is marketing and public ignorance; great to see some other Americans are still looking; used to be easier in cities with large Tower Records but Fanfare is both ridiculous and very spotty so unless one reads Euro mags or relentlessly scours MDT or U.S. distributor release lists they'll have no idea what's available. I'm mostly sick of DSCH except for some soundtracks, "The Golden Age" ballet, "Lady Macbeth" ballet and the 24 p&f (Roger Woodward, Jenny Lin) but I'll keep this in mind. Ubu, skip the first piano trio unless you have some reason not to; listen to the second to say you did and move on. Once upon a time I rated the Borodin coupled with the 5-tet... http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Piano-Quintet-Trio-No/dp/B000000ACI now see little reason to bother. MANY folks would be better advised to explore the byways of Prokofiev instead.

Excellent, thanks for posting! Ever see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4Xp2PEr8F0

Jakon Lindberg on BIS was also nice in Weiss but the Barto/Naxos series is obviously more affordable/comprehensive.

French Suites, English Suites, Toccatas in one swoop-- http://www.amazon.com/French-Suites-English-Toccatas/dp/B005KAAAPA I bagged all these separately on release and was thrilled. Andreas Staier's Partitas for Deatsche Harmonia Mundi are excellent and can be had very cheaply as part of this box-- http://www.amazon.com/Andreas-Staier-Boccherini-Scarlatti-Telemann/dp/B005L12SI0/ Also keep an eye out for Benjamin Alard in the Ubung-- http://www.amazon.com/Clavier-Ubung-Book-J-S-Bach/dp/B00354XVM2

I'm a big Mustonen fan but I have to admit I'd rather hear Bach or DSCH, not both jumbled together... But really, eff the piano in baroque and earlier repertoire. While it was once a necessary filter for our historical ignorance and/or an alternative to the days of lesser harpsichordists and harpsichords, the level of musician and instruments in the last 15 years or so has become tremendous. Keith Jarrett's Bach is horrendous, even worse than his insufferable jazz playing. (My biggest criticism of Jarrett's vocalization is that it ISN'T LOUD ENOUGH to drown out the bullshit from comes out his fingers.) Hans, on further thought I'd definitely get Schornsheim and give this a listen too Peter Watchorn on pedal harpsichord-- http://peterwatchorn.com/ Larry Kart if you see this NO the Rannous Goldberg really is awesome but she's her own woman for sure; it wouldn't be bonkers to compare her to a HIP Mengelberg/Furtwangler in fact. re: Rousset in Forqueray, ornamentation and improvisation can be contentious; I've studied the subject enough to believe there was always a variety/range of accepted styles depending on x # of factors-- musician, instrument, day of week, audience expectation etc. all of Leonhardt's ponderous and insufferable recordings didn't do the cause of harpsichord genius any good either, save 1) dedication and 2) counter-example. Like Boney Moroney!!

avoid Edwin Fischer, which is a dog. If you're gonna put THAT much effort into figuring out what the hell he's trying to do, might as play the damn pieces yourself. Avoid Tureck like live hand grenade, she's that deadly. Most piano versions are lame so you're right to look HIP; do you still like Angela Hewitt? At best I'd say she's non-offensive or blandly decent. One piano version I'd check out besides the essential (as points of reference) Samuel Feinberg and Gould recordings is Zhu Xiao-Mei on Mirare-- http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier/dp/B0038ZGLJI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgPnkZMs72I Gulda is pretty good too; LOTS of otherwise excellent interesting pianists crap out on WTC (Richter, Afannassiev, Koroliov, the list goes on), alas. Roger Woodward is pretty good, could be better. Fake harpsichord: Landowska is still pretty good, better than any old piano version and the absurdly overpraised Casals Bach, for example, though I'd say Wanda was best in the partitas and Italian concerto. Organ/clavecin/clavichord: Robert Levin did a terrific set for Hanssler but it swaps instruments so often it won't work for most people. A fine idea well-realized but not the most FUNCTIONAL for home use. Harpsichord: Christine Schornsheim is a great bargain (RUN for her Haydn box too btw); Pierre Hantai as Mike suggested; Davitt Moroney; Ralph Kirkpatrick on clavichord; http://www.amazon.com/Well-Tempered-Clavier-Bach/dp/B0064DLG32 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yekDaeytKaY Avoid the disappointing Egarr, burn/bury/drown Leonhardt. Blandine Verlet is pretty good.

harpsichord: ALL cds by Blandine Rannou (her new Goldberg is awesome); Celine Frisch (her Goldberg is also awesome, my favorite); Christophe Rousset; Andreas Staier; Skip Sempe. start here, do NOT-- repeat-- do not get any cds by Gustav Leonhardt. if you have the taste and the time, Davitt Moroney's William Byrd keyboard box is an amazing thing. Pierre Hantai's John Bull recording is essential. http://www.amazon.com/John-Bull-Doctor-Pièces-Clavier/dp/B000059OBN other composers to check out: Froberger (young Richard Egarr was esp. good here, he got more boring as he 'matured'); Frescobaldi; Domenico Scarlatti; Louis Couperin; Francois Couperin; D'Angelbert; lute: Dowland, Weiss, Kapsberger; Paul O'Dette, Nigel North, Hopkinson Smith, Elizbeth Kenny, among others, are all excellent in their ways. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u49xW7KVznk gamba: as long as you realize Jordi Savall ain't the last word, nearly all his recordings ARE worth hearing; figure out your repertoire and dive in. everything Paolo Pandolfo has done is excellent also. lemme know when your ready for consort music. violin: hop on the Telemann fantasias but don't expect Bach. Telemann was a great great composer but these aren't his most important pieces. can you deal with continuo? if so Biber is endlessly challenging and rewarding, go for Reinhard Goebel first, skip Andrew Manze, whom only dead fish sect of limey critics could ever have mistaken for unhinged. recorder: not a repertoire I pursue but if you wanna go that way, try your home boy Frans Bruggen in whatever looks interesting. this just off top of bean, forgetting much.

** EVERYTHING IS WRONG WITH STARKER ** tone, rhythm, articulation, the works! the guy had zero clue when he started and had no better ideas three dreary recordings later. just because it was well-marketed in an era of few choices doesn't mean it's worth hearing today. I hope the 'audophiles' who have the 'cherished' SACD of the Living Presence recording at least put on the proper 'interconnects'; ridiculous that some alleged 'golden ears' don't realize the importance of having the proper interconnects for particular types of music: chamber, orchestral, keyboard, vocal etc. There are no youtube clips but Amazon has samples of the superb & superbly individual Bruno Cocset set-- http://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Suites-Violoncello/dp/B00006L7TD

Helene Schmitt p/s--

co-sign Mike, and I can spot him distaste for John Holloway's tone; I cut Holloway slack because I grew up on his Biber but it's pretty much the only representative of the style I still abide. LK, I wouldn't say the lesser HIP people were hiding anything but more than a few did caught between exploratory performance practice, less-than-mind-blowing-chops AND-- this is more key than technique per se (the old Schnabel/Cortot argument on strings) is that the Brits and the Dutch were so damn po' faced... Harnoncourt and his adepts weren't but there the iffy musicianship with ancient instruments can be problem. (Harnoncourt's first St Matthew is still a favorite, however.) With exceptions like the great Skip Sempe (an expat, of course) American baroque music practice is often a bummer too btw-- all those lousy Nicholas McCegan records, American Bach Soloists, etc. Now let's take the Brandenburgs, listen to the musicianship by * Cafe Zimmermann * Hesperion XX (Jordi Savall) * Concerto Italiano (Rinaldo Allessandrini) * Il Giardino Armonico * Freiburg Baroque * Musik Antique Koln And it's THRILLING... vastly more satisfying than most 21st c. jazz or "creative improvised music" hokum too btw. Masaaki Suzuki, alas, is almost Dutch Japanese and usually duller than need be and hiding behind Lutheran liturgy doesn't help. I heard an excellent interview with Viktoria Mullova a couple years back about her decisions in recording the Bach S&P... Basically, anyone who doesn't consider period instruments even when playing a modern violin is deluding themselves and I agree. http://www.amazon.com/Sonatas-Partitas-Solo-Violin-Mullova/dp/B001SB1KHW Same goes for cello of course-- just because SOME period performers are as boring if less bloated than modern performers doesn't mean the sound world is incorrect-- and I'll give up Fournier, sure, and throw out all those old Karl Richter records too (really)... I'll hang on Walcha in mono though. That last sentence seems to me to call for two qualifications: 1) Provided the players are really good, and too many HIP specialists IMO have been so-so players hiding behind their HIP allrightnik-ness; 2) It also can work like gangbusters on instruments different from the ones Bach had -- no, not the calliope, but ... well, you know the drill.

ah but there are SIX suites LK... true, Schiff is very Gould-ian but I'll take his fleetness and caresses over the drone of flat-flooted schmoes all day every day. i'm having trouble posting youtube this moment but, after Tortelier, I ** think ** I'll still plump for Fournier on Arkiv as best in the old style. http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Suiten-für-Violoncello-solo/dp/B000001GRZ

Skip it. Starker is a wholly ersatz grail, not even in the top 10 of his basic style in Bach and only 'vaunted' because of the Wilma Cozart Fine cult; not an uninteresting story to be sure but not one important enough to put production over performance. Heinrich Schiff >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul Tortelier-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXAqiDzu2PQ Starker doesn't even breathe the same air. Note there are two EMI Tortelier/Bach recordings; I prefer the first, 1960 recording, though the 1983 has its merits and advocates also.

but there'a a lot more to Bach especially than Szigeti's vibrato... I do appreciate Josef, especially his Busoni, but the R-A-N-G-E (repeat r-a-n-g-e) of potential period practice >>>>>>> the range essentially romantic era violinists brought to Bach. Thus Zehetmair on a modern instrument is superb... while Szigeti only reminds me what a GREAT era of Bach performance we live in and what a long road it was to get here. Too bad Rene Jacobs hasn't recorded either of the Passions though or more cantatas. same goes for the cellists btw, Starker is just dull, not even larded; Heinrich Schiff, on a modern instrument, whom I forgot to mention in the cello thread, blows him away in every way possible save "iconic." In my world, nothing is hipper than Szigeti. 20th and 21st Century children working with ancient instruments, or reproductions lose music as they search for technique.

wow. i'm a satisfied Amazon customer in a # of areas, return policy is aces when its been required but this is a RIDICULOUS effin' policy. (i've heard of some similar proprietary shenanigans on the books end-- esp. e-books-- but didn't play close attn to the issues involved.) what if you or any other label owner reasonably declines to sell ANY mp3? tough shit? amazon's cut on the retail isn't enough to host your 30-second samples? i don't know the business #s but it's too bad Nessa can't be on, say, Naxos.com, like BIS is and likewise doesn't sell MP3s or lossless (praise be Robert von Bahr.) (Though I'll note Hyperion and Chandos both sell CDS, MP3 and lossless.)

Mandrill, how'd you get hip to Helene Schmitt? I'm a big fan of her work and much of the label's Bach, especially the Cafe Zimmermann and Celine Frisch, whose Goldberg is THEE best harpsichord version bar none. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeALpnLyb5o I know it's a tuff sell re: more Bach concertos but I think this equals or even beats Freibourg Baroque, my previous standard + Cafe Zimmermann give you more-- http://www.amazon.com/Concertos-I-VI-J-S-Bach/dp/B005IQXUQW Bach solo violin-- Modern: Zehetmair, Kremer, Julia Fischer (the last three all HIP influence)... If you gotta go old school, both Milstein are still tolerable but Mullova is better Bach tho' the great Isabelle Faust has only recorded half of 'em so far, when complete hers will almost certainly be way up there-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC6W-6it_AU HIP: while I can appreciate my estimable colleague Mike Weil's advocacy of Huggett, I find her too sober for my tastes; likewise Podger, Van Dael, Wallfisch, etc. Kuijken is a straight snooze. In that general bag, John Holloway is best/most interesting, I think, but for pure pleasure, I'll whip out Schmitt and the recent-ish Amandine Beyer on Zig Zag, which I'm still living with but is more than provisionally excellent-- http://www.amazon.fr/Bach-Sonates-partitas-pour-violon/dp/B005H3HXQE

Glad you got this, LK... I assume you got Gaillaird II-- http://www.amazon.com/J--S-Bach-Suites-violoncelle-1007-1012/dp/B004NWHV6W/ Gaillard I, issued as two separate-- and beautifully packaged-- Ambrosie label CDs was excellent too, though the label could be elusive. I think her's is by far best of the 'period' performances; the rest, even Byslma I-- are pretty po' faced and though I have affection for Fournier and Tortelier, NONE of the traditional recordings would rank in my top 5; (and if one did, Starker it definitely wouldn't be, nor absurdly hyped-on-release Isserlis The Rostropovich is a bad and not-tasteless-enough joke.) Caals we gotta deal with vis a vis history of performance practice but its musical interest is otherwise slight. May I never hear Ron Carter (or William Parker) play arco again--

the Mabern records are decent if inessential; if you feel that way about Harold's whole career (understandable), I'll add he's a FASCINATING and excellent interviewee, great source of Phineas Newborn lore so I cut him a little slack... HOWEVER, I had occasion last night to listen to three hours of live 'peak' Jarrett ('American Quartet') on wkcr.org presented by the estimable Mitch Goldman and, in answer to the age old question, is it worth suffering Jarrrett (and, to a lesser extent, suffering Motian also) to hear the great Dewey Redman, sorry to say-- It. Is. Not. Even. Close. Jarrett is so goddamn insipid-- cutesy-pie gospel ostinato bullshit with totally misplaced ersatz 'classical' tone production (no wonder his later Shostakovich, Bach and Mozart are laughable... I guess if you're an ofay scared of gospel per se and 'jazz' fan ig'nant of or antagonistic to 'long-hair' music this was a breath of fresh something but for the rest of us, it's utter GARABGE and ** never ** got better, no matter one's po' mouth rationalization that well, its success let Manfred do lots of other things... About the only HOT moment of the whole program was when Mitch highlighted an especially hot Dewey mussette solo but otherwise, rather than make me reconsider Jarrett, it made me question Dewey's contributions to the mess. Semi-interesting to realize much of Motian's later banality was already present here too, bleh. In penance, I listened to Hampton Hawes' THE SERMON four times in a row, then watched this-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbb63TIseiU Sonny Criss' Cravat >>>>>> Jarrett's career Sadly, nothing there I'd want to buy.

yah here's a suggestion... Suk it!! http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Trios-Nos-Schubert/dp/B0019F8HKA avoid the Denon remake unless a Suk Trio completist.

More like not good enough! Unless you're a Boulez completist, PB's CBS recordings are far preferable to the DG and tho' it seems the recent-ish Sony bargain boxes are out of print, these aren't rare cds (or lps) in various guises. http://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Orchestral-Works-Maurice/dp/B000002705 http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Orchestral-Works-Claude/dp/B000002C00 Get the classic Webern box (definitely not the lame DG remake), ALL his Schoenberg and the two Varese while you're at it. If anyone want some froggy Ravel piano to go with their Martinon and complement Marcelle Meyer, Robert Cassadesus and Samson Francois... jean-Phillippe Collard's set is excellent, underrated-- http://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Complete-Works-Solo-Piano/dp/B0002XV2Y8/ also, the Percy Grainger box on Chandos would kill at nearly any price, let alone $65-- http://www.amazon.com/Grainger-Susan-Gritton/dp/B004HEDGGU

1) there's no such thing as 'piffling minutia'; it is-- or should be-- all part of the architecture. 2) it is impressions lower case: Grant was a highly accomplished mimic and a genuine fan of contemporary comedy and offered friends and nightclub audiences superb deadpan versions of Lenny Bruce, Tom Lehrer, Stan Freberg, Jonathan Winters, Redd Foxx (of course), Moms Mabley (who?), Allan Sherman, Godfrey Cambridge, Bill Cosby, Don Rickles, Richard Pryor-- even Woody Allen!! 3) ideally one can utilize various modes of historical research/writing and come up with a composite structure likely to contain more truths than lies or evasions; unfortunately, most journalists (or fan writers) and most historians are ill-equipped to achieve this though the recent exceptions like John Szwed and Robin D.G. Kelley are highly laudible.

Ah but there's a VERY important difference between "likes" and "respects"; too many people conflate dislike of Mike into dismissing his real achievement, as vocalist, band member, cheerleader. MIU is also a gloriously weird episode in a corporate history full of them. He's also just one dude-- can't blame him 1966-67 alone; And who's to say his "issues" aren't skewing his "best" judgement as much as the Wilsons effected theirs? I'd rather "MIU" than BW's horrific Gershwin and Disney albums too btw. That's not to let Mike off the hook but he was there, he was HERE-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfDFee-GgU8 Dennis balls deep was lucid, it was the drugs that sank him.

this isn't directed at you Quincy but i can't believe some of utter crap touted on this board-- jazz and non- (especially non-)-- and yet there are also people wholly dismissive of later-- admittedly dying-- Dead. i'd rather Jerry's knees than all Keith Richards and Robbie Roberston (or the Stones, or the Band, or any fucking Beatles cover by anyone, JG included) combined (just as a for instance). re: "So Many Roads," there are couple dire selections there, yes, but also some gems as you note.