Rooster_Ties

I'd take a Scion box-mobile over any Pontiac, any day of the week. And actually, those Scion "boxes on wheels" are incredibly utilitarian vehicles, with WAY more usable contiguous cargo space than any vehicle that size ought to have. Given the complete absense of any good station wagon options from Honda or Toyota, my next vehicle could quite possibly be a Scion box (though not for another 3-5 years).

BTW, and FWIW -- speaking of American cars, I pretty much can't stand Pontiac. Can't stand their cars. Can't stand their advertising. Can't stand the people they portray in their advertising. I even usually can't stand the music they use in their advertising. Pretty much anything Pontiac is the bottom of the barrel, from my perspective. Ugliest vehicle I can think of in recent years?? You guessed it -- a Pontiac.

They can't. Its dead. They would have to get all new franchisees and that ain't gonna happen. Frankly, they should've gotten rid of Buick before Olds, imo. Then again, what would the old people who can't afford Cadillacs drive? They gotta have something to ram into your rear-end with. Would they really have to get all new franchisees?? No car dealership I've seen in years sells just one make of car any more. Yeah, hell if I've been in a new car dealer for any American brand in years -- but as far as I can see from local car dealership ads, dealers that carry GM product mostly carry all GM products (all the lines). Most Ford dealers I can think of sell Lincolns, Mercury, etc... (Or, rather, I can't think of any "Lincoln only" dealers, or "Chevy only" dealers anymore --- where back when I was a kid, I think there sure were such "one make only" dealerships.) "Olds" is just another nameplate -- and it wouldn't be that hard to bring back, I wouldn't think. (Whether they'd want to is an entirely different discussion.)

My thoughts too. The "bigger band" dates that Wilson was involved in are really the highlight of the set for me. Well, and all that Land too. LOTS of reason to like the Carmell set, beyond just Carmell.

I'm not saying he's overrated, but I have to admit that Dorham is a guy who hasn't exactly knocked me out over the years -- or at least he hasn't really spoken to me that deeply. I know him primarily from his BN leader dates (I've got most of them), and most of his various sideman appearances on BN (especially those with Joe Henderson), and a couple co-leader dates with Jackie McLean (originally on UA?) -- I'm talkin' about MATADOR and INTA SOMETHIN'. I may have heard one or two of his dates that are now OJC's (QUIET KENNY is the only one that comes to mind). Maybe a live air-check from the early-to-mid 60's (one of the Steeplechases?). And of course he's also on POINT OF DEPARTURE. Sorry to be a downer here. He's certainly not a bad player either (or that uneven, come to think of it). Just not somebody I've ever been dyin' to hear more and more from.

...or, in the case of Pink Floyd material... ROIO = Recording of Indeterminate Origin

in hard bop, maybe. and funk?? - you've got to be kidding.

More to the point... Sangry, would you just tell bertrand that he needs to hear this damn date -- Dewey or no Dewey. I'm just spinnin' my wheels here. Somebody with more cred in this area needs to chime in, Jim, so get on it already.

Yeah, but you'd have to wait until next decade to pick up that one. Remember, if you buy only 1 pop CD this decade...

It's all about the "expectations" game -- not unlike Presidential Primary races. For instance, a REALLY strong showing in a state where a candidate is not expected to do that well, may in fact turn out to be a "victory" even with a second place "win" (even if the candidate in second place only gets 35% of the vote). Whereas a candidate expected to run away with it may in fact "loose" the race in a particular state by only winning plurality of the vote (say 45%), to a second place finisher who got 35% -- when the actual "winner" was expected to get 50% or say 55%. It's all about expectations. (Sorry about politics creeping into a non-political forum, but I think the example is a good one.) For me, a player is overrated if a good bit of the music he or she makes isn't as good as my expectations are going into it. Underrated, just the opposite -- when a bunch of the music is better than my expectations are. And my expectations are largely based on "conventional wisdom", for lack of a better term -- based on discussions here, and elsewhere.

OK, I don't know if this helps with the "what does 'overrated' mean?" question, but perhaps it might... Donald Byrd's name has been mentioned more than once in this thread. Now, I happen to like Byrd, though he's certainly not my favorite trumpeter by some margin. Not even in my top-5. Not even in my top-5 if I limit myself to 60's recordings. But I have a lot of Byrd in my collection, and I enjoy a bunch of it on occasion. Now Freddie Hubbard's a guy who's name hasn't come up in this thread much (it at all, I'm not sure). He's a guy who I often like in sideman appearances, but who's leader-dates almost always seem to be less than I was expecting (much less, actually). In other words, Byrd lives up to my expectations. But for me, Hubbard rarely does (at least on his own leader-dates). So, in my book, Hubbard is somewhat overrated -- but Byrd probably isn't. Byrd meets my expectations, and Hubbard doesn't. And, FWIW, my expectations for Hubbard's leader dates are set not only by what the "buzz" is about him (historically speaking), but also based on what I know he's capable of on other people's dates -- particularly good gobs of more "out"-leaning dates. (I used to call them "progressive" dates, but I'd been beaten down about that word, so I'm trying to use it less.) So, to recap, in my book... Donald Byrd is neither overrated, nor underrated. He delivers what I'm expecting, and generally does so most of the time, and does it pretty well, generally. Nobody claims he's the greatest, and not many people dis him either. Freddie Hubbard is a bit overrated. I think he's clearly capable of more (as evidenced by lots of his sideman work), and I think he generally is rated pretty high (overall) as a player -- more than I think most his leader-dates really deliver (with maybe one or two exceptions). But, the funny thing is, when push comes to shove -- I think Freddie's an arguably "better" player than Byrd.

Amazon reviews prove that out, for sure!!!!!

That's the top 6. You got more?? I'd be interested in seeing the top 20, or top 25 (or even top 50). (I've never done a torrent download, so I ain't fishin' for material -- just currious about what other people are wantin'/listenin' too.)

That's why I said "around here" -- cuz I don't see many people singing Hill's praises elsewhere, to the extent they're sung around here. He's getting some good critical press these days, and more than makes sense given the kind of press he's gotten over his whole career. But that doesn't make him overrated. That's just makin' up for lost time.

Is this topic overrated??

Well put, and I agree completely. (Again, I only said he was perhaps a little overrated here on this board. I sure don't see him being overrated anywhere else. And I fully realize that I'm totally one of the people here who probably overrate him (here). I'm a HUGE Hill nut, and really can't say enough good things about him.)

Carmell's contribution to one of the Curtis Amy albums on the Amy Select is fantastic as well (the date with Hutch on it too). Easily the best album on that set (short of Katanga, of course).

OK, Hill is maybe overrated on this board ( ). But overrated in the general jazz world?? I think not. His critical praise is just catching up with him now (as it did with Joe Henderson, 'round '91, when the Strayhorn trib disc came out). Hill was underrated for years, IMHO, as was Joe Hen. The critical praise Henderson got was a little nuts in those last years -- but considering how underrated he was prior to that -- I think it was more than deserved. Same with Hill now. Overrated now, perhaps. Way underrated for decades before. All balances out in the end. Edit: Also, regarding Hill, I think POD is a little overrated (just slightly) -- probably because of Dolphy's influence on the date. As far as 'debut' albums go, I'd put Black Fire up against anybody else. For years POD seamed to be THE Hill album to have (if you could only get one), where I personally think Black Fire deserves that title. My personal Hill favorites vary from year to year, but if I was to reccomend just one Hill title to people, I'd suggest they start with Black Fire. Then Passing Ships (perhaps one of his best late 60's dates), and only after those two would I reccomend POD.

They're all just tryin' to make up for Sangry's post count.

OK, I think one of Ornette's drummers might be on this date. Not certain, but the drumming I'm hearing (on a conventional jazz trap-set) sounds a lot more "interesting" that I would have expected from an any orchestral drummer. If I was a betting man -- I'd say there was a real drummer on this date. Haven't heard any upright bass. (And just the tenor I eluded to in my previous post. )

Wait -- I could have just sworn I heard some tenor in there. Yeah, it was on the stereo in the other room, so it's hard to be sure -- but I'm tellin' you, that definitely sure was maybe some tenor I thought I just heard, maybe. (Well, kinda sorta.) The disc has been on for like 20 or 30 minutes or something, so it was somewhere in the "middle" section. But it was there, I just know it. You'll be able to tell better than I am, bertrand, I just know it. Let me know what you find!!

The liner-notes to the most recent reissue (circa 2001? - no date given in the liners, 'cept ©1972), say that Ornette is the only musician on the date (save for the orchestra, of course). Ornette is listed as playing on tracks #11, #14-18, and #20. My memory (ears) is of one of Ornette's drummers being on the date, but I'll have to spin it to be sure. Doing so now... Edit: IMHO, all of the drums on the date are from the orchestra (at least judging from the first few tracks). The expanded liners include a goodly long passage from Litweiler's Ornette bio (Harmelodic Life). Yeah, the musician's union wouldn't allow jazz musicians on a classical bill (even recording). Live performances that would have included Ornette's quartet were cancelled, and the recording could only include Ornette - since he could slide by the regs, by being a participant by virtue of having been the composer of the works being recorded. Other changes in the planned recording resulted too -- since the full quartet couldn't participate.

Bertrand, if you can find an inexpensive used copy, I think you would find this album to be quite facinating. I'm not saying you'll necessarily love it, but (IMHO) it's by far the most interesting of all of Ornette's third-stream attemps. I used to have a duplicate CD copy (of the most recent remaster) until about 6-months ago, when I gave it to a friend. I could inquire as to whether he really liked (or still likes it), and it not -- I've got plenty of other discs I could trade him for it (to get it back), and then it's yours. Or if you've got a line on a cheap one, you ought to get it. Do I think "Skys..." really works?? -- hell if I know. But it's a fun ride, when I'm in the right mood for it. (More to your question - I don't remember Dewey being on it at all either.)

I see Knox has their music library catalog on-line now. Here's what I found (obviously some things have been "lifted" since they were donated over 10 years ago). I don't remember donating a "Roxy & Elsewhere" disc, but all the rest are my doing... 1. Roxy & Elsewhere [sound recording] / Frank Zappa, the Mothers. 2. Civilization Phaze III / [sound recording] [Frank Zappa] 3. The Yellow Shark [sound recording] / Zappa. 4. The Perfect Stranger and Other Chamber Works [sound recording] : Boulez conducts Zappa. 5. Orchestral Favorites sound recording / Frank Zappa. 6. London Symphony Orchestra [sound recording] / [composed, arranged and produced by Frank Zappa]. 7. Serious Music - by Zappa, Frank. --> ICA Masterworks, 1984? NOTE: That last disc ("Serious Music") was a silver-disc bootleg CD I guess I must have managed to find a second copy of and donated (I still own a copy to this very day, but where I found TWO copies of this back then - I'll never remember ). It has a 15-minute condensed version (highlights) of one of the orchestral movie soundtracks that Frank did back in about 1959 or '60 (including the very, very first "Duke of Prunes" theme) -- (movie title = "The World's Greatest Sinner", IIRC), along with an unreleased 30-minute orchestral version of "Sinister Footware" conducted by Kent Nagano leading the Berkley Symphony Orchestra -- along with a handful of other unreleased "serious" Zappa efforts. PS: Yeah, you're damn right I'm tootin' my own horn about all this. I was a piss poor college student back then, without much money -- but I'll be damned if I was gonna let that "20th Century Classical Music" class ever be taught again with only "Don't You Eat That Yellow Snow" being the primary thing Frank was remembered for.

I was pretty bummed when Frank died in '93. I was in college at the time (about 23 years of age), finishing a B.A. in music (after having already completed another more "career-oriented" BA in 1991). In the Spring of 1993, I had taken a 300-level 20th Century "Classical" music history class. Zappa was covered, slightly, but the only musical examples presented were one track each from Freak Out, and Apostrophe. Pissed me off that NONE of Frank's more "serious" music was covered (or even mentioned, at least not until I brought it up in class). So I got a whole bunch of music major friends of mine to each kick in $10 or $15, and I bought CD copies of The Yellow Shark, London Symphony (2CD version), the date with Pierre Boulez (The Perfect Stranger), Jazz From Hell and Civilization Phase III (which are Zappa's two Synclavier-based releases), plus all 5-discs of the live '88 band (Broadway The Hard Way, Best Band You Never Heard (2CD), and Jazz Noise (also 2CD)), and we donated them to the college music library. And I thought, the NEXT time this class is taught -- there's gonna DAMN well be some examples of what Frank tried to do with "serious" music, along with what he's known better for. (Or if not in the class itself, then at least available in the music library.) And to the best of my knowledge, there's a shit-load of interesting Zappa at Knox College's music library, to this very day. (By the way, until this thread came up -- I'd nearly forgotten all about having done this.)