connoisseur series500

I've sent Johnny a couple of requests. (I reserve the right to blast him on his politics once I get the cd/cds safely in my hands!) Until then, I shall exercise due discretion...

Huge Jet fan here, season ticket holder since '67. How do I get over this past Saturday's fiasco? I know all you Patriot fans would rather we have won, because if it's Belichick/Weiss vs. Herm/Hackett, it's just no contest. Still, it would have been nice to knock off the Steelers on their home turf. I don't know Marty. I wasn't exactly enthusiastic about playing the Jets for the third time this season. I did root for them however. They played with more heart than Pittsburgh. I was pulling my hair out in frustration over Herm's conservatism once they got into field goal range at the end of the fourth quarter. It all spelled doom.

I call this Belichick envy! Come on Browns' fans. Get over it!

Was it as long as 22 years then? Wow! I guess I never really totaled it all up. Again, I was at work where I did not have access to my sources (I use books not internet for research.) I used to be a big boxing fan as a young man, but I just found it too brutal to take. I do understand that it provides some hope of great income for ne-er do wells like Mike Tyson, and perhaps it keeps many others off the streets; but I just don't like the brutality. Now football is different! And I want my team to beat the crap out of the other team. Boxing appears as legalized assault. It's a shame when you get such a bright young guy like Antonio Tarver. I really hate to see someone like that in the fight game. He shouldn't be taking blows to the head.

And he seems a nice guy to boot; but he still didn't add much at all.

I don't get the point of this post. I don't think "we are getting only one side" in this film. It was stated throughout that Johnson existed in an "integrated" society during his career. It was pointed out that a white, former opponent of Johnson (who had knocked Jack out in 3 rounds), later, taught him the finer points of boxing while they were in jail together. Several pictures of Johnson and his integrated entourage were shown. I've watched part 1 again to confirm my impressions. However the magnitude of racial hatred that Johnson endured cannot be overstated. Lynchings of blacks occured not only after the Jeffries fight (actually white people rioted), but after every Johnson victory over a white opponent after he became champion. Sure he had his circle of supporters, but surely you don't believe that they were more than a small percentage of boxing fans. A black fan wouldn't dare attend a Jack Johnson championship fight. Why do you think there was a "white hope" fervor? White fans came out in droves to Johnson's fights in hopes of a white fighter dethroning him. Jack Johnson was so despised by white America that it would be 22 years after he lost the championship that a black man would be allowed to fight for the heavyweight championship. And that was only after the boxing establishment was assured that Joe Louis "knew his place". "Although charismatic and charming outside the ring, Johnson often behaved crassly inside the ring. He would continually taunt his opponents, but would also carry them round after round in order to dish out more punishment. It is true also that Johnson had to take his share of abuse from cornermen and the crowd as well; nevertheless, it is doubtful that Tommy Burns deserved all the physical and verbal abuse that he received." Why wouldn't Johnson torture Burns who was incessantly calling him racial epithets before, during and after the fight? It is well documented that Johnson taunted the fans and his opponents because of the verbal abuse heaped on him during fights. What would you have had him do, show some brotherly love? He was a boxer for chissake. And he retaliated the best way he knew how. If you are a boxing fan, which I assume you are, I'm sure you have seen photographs of Johnson fights where some ringsiders are sitting there with shotguns! In answer to your question about why didn't somebody do something to him, I believe they were too cowardly. And there is an account of an attempt to cheat Johnson. A fight was arranged with Stanley Ketchel, the middleweight champion. The promoter and both fighters secretly agreed that they would not seriously hurt each other and just go the distance. This was to appease the white Ketchel fans who fervently believed Ketchel was the best fighter in the world. Well, Ketchel double-crossed Johnson and knocked him down. Johnson immediately arose and destroyed Ketchel in a matter of seconds. In the film of that fight, Johnson is seen leaning on the ropes staring at an unconscious Ketchel, who is spread- eagle on the canvas, pulling Ketchels teeth out of his boxing glove. I agree with you for the most part, but I must correct some factual errors. I am at work and don't have access to my sources, but it did not take 22 years before another black American would fight for the heavyweight title. It was probably more like 12 years. It would also have occured sooner than that had Joe Louis not been knocked out by Schmeling on the way up. In addition, there were black champions in the lower weights soon afterwards. I would also quibble with the statement about the boxing establishment barring all blacks from fighting for the title. Really, it was up to the boxers themselves. Just as Tommy Burns allowed Johnson to fight for the money, Jack Dempsey wanted not part of black boxers. It was ultimately up to the boxing champion and his entourage. However, the stigma resulting from Johnson's antics definitely contributed towards denying other blacks a chance to fight for the title. Joe Louis helped erase this image with his clean and boring image. America is not to be excused here, but Johnson did push the envelope. It was part of what made him great. No, I am not a boxing fan. I was as a kid, but I loathe the sport. I find it brutal and I see it as still run by criminal forces. As for the rest of your post, I basically agree.

THE best in my opinion!

What I found interesting was the cold reception Johnson got while abroad. France welcomed American jazz artists, but Europe didn't want much from this crass and brilliant man. Did he piss so many people off with his antics? It is also interesting to see the throngs of white people around him in the old photos. White guys will have their elbows on his shoulder and they're all grinning away. The guy was definitely popular. Who wouldn't be when you defy all the mores?

The ugly side of racism really came out in the second part. Really ugly. Johnson definitely inflamed with his in-your-face lifestyle, but that was his genius. Joe Louis was a great fighter but his life was incredibly dull when compared against Johnson. Like Ali, Johnson's influence went way beyond the sport. His social impact was probably greater than even Ali's. What I love about Johnson was his fearless individualism. "Only in America!" Crouch would say. But I love the actor's (forget his name) beautiful summary: "Jack Johnson wasn't a tragedy. America was a tragedy that it couldn't cope with him." Even Crouch had a good statement amongst all the trash he was spouting: "He was one of those guys there's no recipe for." "He was all about movement," said the black actor who portrayed him in the film. He moved in the ring, but also refused to be cornered or pinned down in life. Refused to be placed in a box. Always moving. He was a great artist. To go along with Chris: man, that music sucked! The twangy guitar was too much; and Wynton's retro-jazz just didn't do anything for me. Even the blues tune seemed strangely out of place. Gerald Early added nothing as usual.

The photographer was definitely not there, Chris. According to Crouch's story, Johnson went into the ring with his suit on and the opposing boxer couldn't land a glove on him. The photo then shows Johnson standing over in avuncular fashion over the great boxer Henry Armstrong! I can assure you that Armstrong would have laid many gloves on Johnson at that age! The photos were miscast. They were compiled from a different incident obviously.

I think it ranks amongst Green's top ten recordings.

It's up to you B-3er to once again come to the rescue! You started this wonderful awful forum (quoting the Grinch!) when the BNBB went extinct. Time to work your magic once again and start a cyber auction place!

Oops, part II is coming on in 20 minutes. Gotta go watch it!!

Sorry to burst your bubble here but this sounds an awful lot like the ideas people get in trying to topple Wal-Mart. Boycotts are rarely effective unless they are complete. People love to bitch about Wal-Mart.......usually on their way home from Wal-Mart. Seems like the same thing here - I doubt there would be enough people willing...or able to give up eBay. And that is the exact rationale eBay has in upping their fees. Just as most folks in the BNBB diaspora wound up at Organissimo, so too could disgruntled Ebayers set up a permanent home at another auction site. The most vexing problem would be making sure that everyone migrates to the same alternative site. That is why organization would be necessary. Who wants to move to a new online auction place with that big bunch of scammers? Bottom line is that ebay can increase the fees because they know people will pay them. There just isn't enough serious competition out there to stop ebay from doing what they want.

Well not exactly Chris, it's about race ... which is what all the Ken Burns films are about. He has pretty much said that himself. I guess I never thought that myself, but it sure makes sense. I've seen the Civil War series; the West; Jazz, and now Jack Johnson. I would have to say that the same themes and statements (and the same "experts" ) keep recurring. The facts are skewered as well. We are led to believe, for example, that Tommy Burns expected to beat Johnson. The truth is that Burns figured he had no chance against the "Galveston Giant." However, he wanted to cash in on the fight before he went out and didn't want to lose the big payday, though he was told by many to avoid Johnson. Although charismatic and charming outside the ring, Johnson often behaved crassly inside the ring. He would continually taunt his opponents, but would also carry them round after round in order to dish out more punishment. It is true also that Johnson had to take his share of abuse from cornermen and the crowd as well; nevertheless, it is doubtful that Tommy Burns deserved all the physical and verbal abuse that he received. Burns' also glosses over Johnson's fight with Sam Langford, who was also a black fighter. We are led to believe that Johnson marched over all the other black contenders. At only 145 lbs, Langford put up a furious fight and lost a close decision. Johnson avoided him afterwards and refused to fight him again. Langford could have been Heavyweight champion during the reign of several heavyweight champions. It's criminal that he wasn't allowed a shot at the title. Johnson fought him on the way up. He was built like a Greek god, and many experts considered him the greatest Heavyweight champion of all time. This was primarily due to his superb defensive skills. Few could touch him. The series continues tonight, and I'm sure they will mention Johnson's relationship with Joe Louis. Johnson disliked Louis, and he was unhappy when Louis became the great champion that he was. It was an ugly time in America with all the heavy racism and all. Johnson's greatness to me lay in his independence and willingness to act like a citizen with full rights. He had tremendous moral courage as well as physical courage. I do complain that Burns' seems to focus only on the racism. We know that America was very racist, but there's a deeper side to it. For one thing, Johnson was able to flaunt around with his white women. He was, however, indicted for the Mann Act. He did push the envelope quite a bit!

Flying doubledecker? Hmm, I wonder about the aesthetics.

Interesting also that pugilism was not legal in the end of the 18th century. And the hue and cry to ban it at the beginning of the twentieth century was greater than it is today. Have we gone morally backwards in allowing it? I think it is more of a sport today than it was back then. Boxing will always be seedy and faintly illegal in some way, but perhaps we have softened it up a bit today. There was the mob control in the 50s and then the defalcations of the big promoters like Don King and Bob Arum in the 90s. Fighters like Sonny Liston and Mike Tyson threatened to drag the sport to the fringe, while fighters like Muhammed Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson brought new meaning to the sport. Certainly in Jack Johnson's day and earlier, fight spectators represented the more rowdy side of the public. I don't think boxing was yet fully accepted by the mainstream, though it was clearly heading towards acceptance. Jack Dempsey during the roaring 20s attracted Hollywood to the sport; and I think the fight game became more popular with the mainstream. By Joe Louis' day, boxing became very popular.

I just saw it. I found it very interesting. The story isn't new to me, but I did learn some new things. Burns had the usual crowd of Wynton Marsalis and Stanley Crouch and Gerald Early play prominent roles. I thought Wynton's music was awful. Crouch was his usual entertaining self. Half of what he said was funny and true, while the other half was pure shit. You get the feeling that while White America hated Johnson, they also couldn't help but be charmed by him as well. You also wonder why, if the stakes were so great, why didn't they cheat during the fights in order to stop Johnson? Why didn't the beaten fighters just wrestle him to the canvas or something? I think it's because they knew (and could always have known) that their supremacy was based on very little. They feared that it would all come tumbling down, yet they did allow it in some unwilling but fatal way. Strange. Much was made of the riots after the Jeffries' fight, yet whites come out in throngs to greet the new champion in Chicago. At the same time, you have whites actively supporting and training Johnson. We saw his supporters patting him on the back and forming a protective ring around him after the fight. No doubt about it, much of America hated him, but he had his supporters as well. Many of them were women as well! This angle (except for the women) is completely ignored in the film. We are getting only one side, even if it is the predominant side; and certainly the most provocative and interesting.

Hey, no need to send yours out & about....just give him the day off and I'll send my new driver Ann out to your place w/the goods. Maybe you'll invite her in for a spot of tea. I don't think the lovely Miss C drinks tea--too wimpy for her. How you can find this woman physically attractive is beyond me. Well, I guess we all have our own tastes...

The kind that helps you get into a chick's pants.

...easy for the guy to say! Not sure about that. On balance it leads to a less painful birth, and the birth date can be controlled. In countries like Thailand, most births are done by c-section. It's the default method.

??? Fool! Away with you! Soon we'll be drop kicking those shivering donkeys into the snowdrifts! Okay, my fear of losing the game was greater than my objectivity. I'm happy anyway!

Happy Birthday!

So far I'm 3-0, but I have picked all the favorites so far. Hope I'm wrong on my last pick. Richard Seymour will not be in the lineup for today's game. There had been some speculation that he might play. Man, this is going to be tough! Steelers pulled out yesterday's game. The Jets did everything but win. I thought they outplayed the Steelers. They better play better next game against either the Colts or the Pats. I think they will play a better second game.