Big Beat Steve

Yes, i remember dashin home from school as fast as possible on those Saturdays so I'd catch at least 1 1/2 out of the 2 hours. It did give me an introduction to a lot of names such as Miller, Basie, Ellington, Shaw, etc. as well as more specialist fare such as Luis Russell and Bennie Moten. And I remember a few stories that made me wonder (a bit ...) then but that I got to find to be soooo true before too long, like the show when a diehard Billie Holiday collector was interviewed and mentioned that in order to complete his collection he just HAD to buy this or that LP although he already had 15 out of the 16 tracks on that LP! (That stuck in my memory .... wonder why ... )

Must have been an odd kid myself at 15 in 1975, compared to what I read here from others from those years: Apart from getting seriously into 50s rock'n'roll and rockabilly as well as blues (20s to 50s) at about the same time I started listening to about equal doses of 20s classic jazz and swing on the radio. We had a few weekly half-hour classic jazz radio shows as well as a Saturday noon 2-hour "swing nostalgia" show where collectors were invited into the studio to present their 78rpm treasures (which must have given me my first serious tastes of swing and big band jazz, along with the "Fitch Bandwagon" radio show on AFN). The one specific TRACK that I recall that stuck in my ears from my pre-record buying days was the George Lewis recording of "Ice Cream" (yeah, predictable, I know - but at least it was George Lewis and not Chris Barber! ). Another one (semi-jazz) was Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer" (from the "The sting" movie score).

I've thought long and hard about this but for the life of it can't remember EXACTLY which was the FIRST jazz record I ever BOUGHT. Before buying records I had been listening to both early jazz ("classic jazz") from the 20s and to swing for quite a few months on the radio but going through my racks (I still have all the records I bought, except a scant handful) I am pretty sure I approached the subject chronologically and the first JAZZ record I ever bought very likely was that ODJB twofer on French RCA that collected all their early Victor recordings as well as a few 30s remakes. Among the other very early purchases around the same time (bought within a scant few months in 1975 when I was 15) were a 2-LP set (on the French Monkey label) featuring the California Ramblers, another Monkey 2-LP set with early Fats Waller piano roll solos, an LP of James P. Johnson piano solos, the (oft-reissued) set of the 1939 recordings by Muggsy Spanier's Ragtime band, but also a "Best Of" compilation of Duke Ellington (featuring 1929 to 1941 tracks - I remember buying this one because it included "Take The A Train" which IIRC was the theme song of the "Fitch Bandwagon" radio show I used to listen to on AFN at that time) as well as a 2-LP set with the classic Artie Shaw Victor recordings of the late 30s and early 40s.

Enjoyable music doesn't need to be "essential" to be enjoyable. In fact, in many cases it better not be "essential" the way this term is generally used. Because if you limit your listening to a selection of "must-listen" items then you risk ending up with listening with other people's ears and brains ("what am I supposed to have listened to in order to be "of age" in my appreciation?") instead of your very own - and your own TASTE, above all, which you are entitled to develop and expand at your OWN pace, not as per somebody else's listening agenda. If you are into hard bop far enough to be likely to explore and enjoy hard bop IN DEPTH, then GO FOR IT. I for one certainly have a lot more records by comparative obscurities and also-rans in the fields of swing, R&B and West Coast Jazz, example, than I have of the majors in hard bop (of which I have quite a few but feel little need to dig that deeply) and beyond - and I make no excuses at all for it. It's MY taste and MY appreciation of what I like best, not what somebody else wants to sell me as "essential" that I "got" to own. It's a matter of personal preferences, not a matter of working off a listening schedule.

Ted Gioia's book is terrific Tom. It's the best jazz book I've come across. Well, actually second to "Swing to Bop" by Ira Gitler, IMO. (Judging by which jazz books I'd take out how often to re-read them at length) Which doesn't really detract from Ted Gioia's book, though.

That sounds good! It seems it's being reprinted and to be out again in three weeks: http://www.amazon.fr/West-Coast-Jazz-Alain-Tercinet/dp/2863646656/ Interesting ... I wonder if it is a straight reprint or an updated/revised issue. Two copies of the original issue are currently on ebay.fr, BTW, and a couple more are available from amazon.fr resellers.

I had the same feeling upon reading the full review, i.e. Garner's review appeared a bit more positive than the quote linked by Bluesoul made it appear. BUT - my impression of the above "It worked for me, mostly" sentence was that he meant to say "It worked for me, mostly, but I fully realize this very probably will not work for many of you readers out there, so be warned ..." Backhanded by not stating it outright? Possibly ... Maybe you have to read between the lines indeed ...

Since the West Coast Jazz books by Robert Gordon and Ted Gioia were mentioned several times here: After I had got hold of these in the early 90s these books prompted me to explore certain WCJ musicians in greater detail (Hampton Hawes, in particular, as well as the early Central Avenue acts beyond Wardell Gray whom I had been listening to for a long time) but in general were more of a source of in-depth background info on the music I had already been listening to. My real eye-opener in reading up on the subject came a few years earlier thanks to the book "West Coast Jazz" by Alain Tercinet published by Parentheses in France in 1986. The musical and stylistic analyis in the book covers a huge range of recordings that even includes fairly obscure and "insider" artists (no doubt helped by the fact that at that time the vinyl reissue program by Fresh Sound was already in full swing). Too bad this book probably has remained under the radar of most jazz fans interested in WCJ because it was only ever published in French.

My entries into West coast Jazz (as a gradual expansion of my interest in jazz which has started age 14/15, starting with classic jazz and swing and then moving into bebop) came from tracks heard in jazz shows on radio which prompted me to search out the LPs that the tunes that really caught my ear came from. Among my very earliest WCJ records bought were Shorty Rogers' "West Coast Jazz" on Atlantic and Shelly Manne 's "The West Coast Sound" on Contemporary, both of which I bought whan I was about to leave high school and go to University. Others that triggered my curiosity were original pressings of the "Assorted Flavors of Pacific Jazz" and "Something for Both Ears" Pacific Jazz samplers (as well as a more recent PJ compilation reissue) that came my way at a garage sale. Gerry Mulligan's early quartet followed soon after (my first one was an original 10" French Vogue pressing of early PJ sesions which a fellow collector from our 50s rock'n'troll cicrcles came up with one day but as he was into straight 50s rock'n'roll this was "too far out" for him so I was glad to take it off his hands and swap it for something more up his alley). Like the thread starter said, it probably was (and still is) the general feel and groove of the music that (within the scope of jazz) you imagine perfectly fits the idea you make yourself of sunny 50s California or a thoroughly jazz-flavored sunny summer feeling in general (no "angry young men" there ... ). There are moments when the mood you want to be projected in the jazz you prefer to listen to at a given moment is captured best by WCJ (of oucrse there are other moments too, but ... ) And things went from there and still haven't stopped ...

Wow! Must have!

Oh........ how times have changed! The difference between "WAG" and "wag", it seems ...

So ... I have taken the plunge and ordered the book ... And I think I've found a good solution for Europeans wishing to order this book from outside Sweden: I ordered through www.ginza.se and they charge a flat shipping fee of 99 SEK for shippings all through the EU. See for yourself on the above website - go to "Kundservice" (Customer Service) and then to "European Delivery". This is quite a bit more affordable than the shipping cost indicated by Daniel (which appears to be on the low side for actual shipping costs anyway because Bokus.se quoted almost 280 SEK for shipping costs). I paid through Paypal and the order confirmation from Ginza arrived at once. So let's see how long it will take for the book to arrive. Ginza says the book will ship within 3 to 6 days (other sites claim 1 to 2 days) but with international shipments I think the difference will be negligible because you never know where things might be delayed in transit. Not wanting to plug that site (this is my first order with them) but they seem to be a good address for a lot of items connected with music; in fact I remember seeing regular ads by Ginza on 50s music CDs in Swedish collector's car mags that also cover 50s music and related "lifestyle" to some extent. Hope their speed of service will live up to their publicity.

Thanks, Daniel. This is more or less what I figured (from past experience). But considering the price paid for similar books elsewhere ... (Or to put it another way: If the book is of the 28x28 cm coffee-table variety (like it seems) and of a presentation to match, then the book itself isn't THAT expensive, so .... ) I have written to Bokus this morning to inquire and they have acknolwedged recipt but have not replied to my question yet. We'll see ...

Adlibris would have been a bit cheaper but if they don't ship aborad ... Ginza.se have a list price that is a wee bit (not much) above that of Bokus. We'll see ... Maybe some of the Swedish forumists around here might have a hint to add?

It should be available outside Sweden via Bokus. See their English-language FAQs. They specifically list both Germany and France. It just is so that shipping costs from Sweden are not exactly cheap (I've bought from private and professional sellers on a number occasions from Sweden in recent years). And this book weighs close to 2 kg.

Thanks, King Ubu. In fact I have considered this address but had also wondered about www.adlibris.com But I am not sure they ship abroad. Might have to ask ...

Me too! Must have! Thanks for making us aware of this release. Must find an ordering source fast.

Not quite. The four tracks from the April 26, 1955 session are on "Showcase" (JASCD 616) but the four tracks from the April 23, 1956 session are on "Opus De Funk" (JASCD 621), and only two of the 4 tracks from the 1956 session (i.e. 6 out of the total of 8 beer-related titles) were included on the "Pub Crawling" LP on Contemporary.

+1 for Rolf Ericson's Swedish rcordings. I was going to mention MILES AWAY in my earlier post but decided to restrain myself. But now that it's mentioned ... (and maybe to bring the recommendations back into the MIDDLE of the time frame originally mentioned by the thread starter, instead of its tail end ... ) The MILES AWAY CD really is something else. Don't know how to describe it, but Ericson's Swedish recordings from that period have a "bite" and punch of their own. The Arne Domnérus/Rolf Ericson CD on Dragon (DRCD 381) is also recommended more or less along the same lines.

Good to see that this is settled, Simon. To concretize my recommendations above: I've always have had a soft spot for the Lars Gullin 2-LP reissues of his 50s work done by Metronome in the 70s and the "Fine Together" 2-LP set reissued by Sonet (featuring late 50s Gullin) but they are long OOP. For his 50s recordings I'd suggest you check out the Lars Gullin CD series reissued in more recent times on Metronome ("The Legendary Years") as well as the reissues featuring Gullin on the (Swedish) Dragon label. Am not familiar with his later recordings so you will have to wait for others to chime in. Hans Koller: The Saba LP "Exclusiv" from the mid-60s is very nice but probalby excedingly difficult to find. WIthin the time frame you mentioned, "Vision" on the Saba label also is a fine one, I understand (though I have no idea if and where it has been reissued). http://www.discogs.com/Hans-Koller-Vision/release/2531599 Prime Hans Koller from the 50s is on these two CDs: - "Some Winds" (2-CD set on the Austrian RST label, featuring recordings he did in Austria) - "Musician Of The Year" (on the Jazz Realities label) - a reissue of his three 10-inch LPs on the legendary (German) MOD label. And speaking of Martial Solal: Koller's Collaboration with Solal on ths 1965 LP might also be worth a try: http://www.discogs.com/Attila-Zoller-Hans-Koller-Martial-Solal-Attila-Zoller-Hans-Koller-Martial-Solal/release/1720925 Michael Naura: His 1963 album "European Jazz Sounds" on Brunswick seems to have been reissued on CD in recent years: http://www.discogs.com/Michael-Naura-Quintet-European-Jazz-Sounds/release/2814824 Earlier (50s) recordings by Naura were issued on various EPs but I am not sure of recent reissues and his later recordings cover different ground, style-wise.

"Un-American Jazz!" Whew ... That topic title almost came across like a KKK witch hunt call! :crazy: Now, seriously: To answer your question, what one would have to know a little better is Where would you want to draw a line between what you would call "pastiche of American jazzz" and what you would find acceptable for its own self? Wonder how many American jazzmen would just have been doing "pastiches" of other (more renowned, more innovative) American jazzmen too, BTW? Be careful not to fall into the Down Beat review rut of calling everything "derivative" that isn't wildly innovative (and then bound to drift beyond what might still be called jazz by many criteria). Anyway ... If you want to start off in a relatively classic modern jazz vein, try Lars Gullin, and Jan Johansson from Sweden. Jan Johansson's interweaving of jazz and Swedish folk tunes is quite fascinating and very much a class by itself. Bengt-Arne Wallin's "Old Folklore in Swedish Modern" would fall into much the same bracket. There are many, many more from post-war Sweden that I find could very well stand on their own but again, it depends on how far your "pastiche" idea would go and to what extent you exclusively want things to come from the "bop" side and not from the "cool" side.. From (West) Germany: Klaus Doldinger, Hans Koller, Albert Mangelsdorff, Michael Naura (just as starters). There are many more from the 70s Free Jazz scene but others wil be more qualified to tell you about "un-American" acts of note.

+1 Some rather favorable comments here made me consider getting this eventually (for the new research findings) after all but Larry thankfully has set things straigtht. No doubt there are nuggets hidden in there but I don't feel like wading through THAT much pompousness trying to dig for them. Just not an even tradeoff IMO ... Priestley and/or Haddix, you can have my money ...

When I was at a public station here in Toronto, I offered to play listeners' favourites when they made a donation. One of the telephone volunteers passed on a request for "Big Spider Beck". :lol: So it wasn't the listener who sent in the request that way but some clueless typist transcribed the listener's phone call like that??

i.e. John Tefteller?

@Rob/rgodridge: Here is a BN labelography that should tell you quite a bit about teh different pressings and reissues and their overall evluation. This document is not up to date (it is from 1997/1999) and therefore does not include the recent vinyl reissues but it should include some useful info about the "usual" secondhand BN vinyl pressings that are out there: http://kleene.ss.uci.edu/~rmay/Bluenote.html