Big Beat Steve

Amazing. Neither Jepsen nor Bruyninckx list this artist or the record. So it will have escaped reissuers as well.

In the same manner, even No. 2 is far too limiting. A bebop pianist need not have played with Charlie Parker ever and yet can be a bebop pianist in accordance with the way he played jazz. It can of course be argued that all those pianists who played with Charlie Parker (trying to figure in his countless rhythm sections here ) must have been bebop pianists one way or another but does this, by implication, mean that the opposite can be true too? I.e. "if you haven't played with Charlie Parker you cannot be a bebop pianist"? .

Yes, interesting (and sad in a way). But if Claude Thornhill was that far down by 1958 when Zwerin gigged with him, by comparison Boyd Raeburn (also well down compared to his 40s Progressive Jazz fame) had fared comparatively better because he had just "gone commercial". His LPs for Columbia in the later 50s ("Dance Spectacular", "Fraternity Rush" and "Teen Rock") are listenable but very mainstreamy and comparatively undistinguished by jazz standards, despite a near-all star-ish lineup. I am not familiar with the Claude Thornhill LPs from the later 50s (on Columbia and Design) but from the description on Discogs I gather they are broadly in the same category, probably leaning even more towards easy listening. From the later Boyd Raeburn items, I have his "Teen Rock" LP (Columbia CL 1073, telltale period cover - see below) and have filed it in a "big bands trying to stay with the rockin' times" corner of my collection along with these: - Dan Terry "Teen Age Dance Party" (Columbia/Harmony) - Ray Conniff "Dance The Bop" (Columbia/Harmony, released as "Rockin The Bop, Boppin' The Rock" on Philips in Europe) - Ronn Metcalfe "Twistin' At The Woodchoppers' Ball" (Barry) - "The Twist with Ray Anthony" (Capitol) Amusing late 50s/early 60s big bands if taken with a relaxed smile and not too seriously ...

Would never have imagined this might be considered a "ghost" band. But going strictly by the name on the covers, there is something to it ...

Omnipresent in the jazz bins in the record shops over here for quite a while in the 80s too. According to the Discogs listing some of the tracks are longer than the typical 78rpm limit (and would just about have fitted on a 12"). https://www.discogs.com/master/580388-Various-I-Remember-Bebop Somehow I remember this 2-LP set has been discussed (or at least mentioned approvingly) here in a previous thread. But who will be able to locate that thread?

Just rushed through the track listing. A HUGE lot of pre-war blues. Maybe too much indeed for the average collector of today (provided they can stomach that many jug and hokum tracks which I think still are an acquired taste for many blues purists), particularly those who are in the market for Bear Family boxes and who do NOT already have a lot of it on Document reissues. What is there from the post-war era looks like it relies heavily on Sam Phillips-produced items that he leased to other labels (Modern, Chess, etc.). Again something that many fans of this music may already have (to a more or less large extent) on other reissues. Still an interesting set - not least of all for those tracks of "white men singing them blues" sprinkled in between. 😁 Basically something I'd hate to have to pass up but ...

Not that rare on Sonet EP originals, alas, but it can happen on LPs too. Some of these seem to deteriorate distinctly with age. I have also observed this (though rather more rarely) on Metronome EPs. Maybe it's the pressing plant (i.e. certain orignal pressings?) that is at fault?

@Rabshakeh (post-war again this time ) : "East Coast Blues" is on the "All The Way" LP I listed.

Re- Texas Chatter: Recommended vinyl buying for Rabshakeh: The "Texas Chatter 1937-38" LP on TAX m-8015 (which has 2 takes of "Texas Chatter", BTW)

Fester Addams! And yes - this version of "Lester Leaps in" is great. (And here it is on CD:) https://www.discogs.com/release/14397447-Various-The-Sullivan-Years-Big-Band-All-Stars But you can see how choosy and picky you have to be with bands like his - the next video that comes up on YT when you watch this Harry James video is his "Soft Lights Sweet Trumpet" LP! Ouch ... 😕 Maybe this still epitomizes Harry James in the minds of many ... (The early 50s 10" pressing of this somehow came my way twice as fleamarket finds, and I've relegated both to the "Easy Listening" corner of my own fleamarket crate since)

Carl Elmer aka Ziggy Elmer? (Not to be confused with the namesakish trumpet Elman) He was singled out in the liner notes of several of the LPs I mentioned and was praised on the Hep LP.

I cannot comment on the ones mentioned so far here as I am not familiar with them. But I am not the one who can provide comprehensive assessments anyway - just individual and subjective recommendations. The ones from the post-war era of Harry James that I own and find interesting and worthwhile jazzwise (because they largely avoid his schmaltzy trumpet excursions) are these: - "Big John Special" (1948-50), Hep 24 - "Vol. 1" (1946-1949), Solid Sender SOL 501 (this has one or the other track where I'd be really interested to see how they would fare in a blindfold test - I'd bet that many would be stumped 😁) - "Vol. 2" (1944-1954), Solid Sender SOL 504 (some of its contents may be identical with "1945-1949", First Heard FH-9) - "The Uncollected Vol. 3" (1948-49), Hindsight HSR-135 - "The Uncollected Vol. 6" (1947-49), Hindsight HSR-150 - "All The Way" (2-LP set, only 2 from 1941 and 45, rest from 1946 to 1954, about half Columbias, half broadcasts), Big Band Archives, LP-2202 You will again notice that except for the last one these again focus on airshots, transcriptions and live recordings. This was not THAT intentional but was dictated by availability, and over time I have found with "name" bands (white ones, in particular) where you search for the jazzier items but can do without the obvious commmercial suspects it was hard to find really great vinyl reissues (except for the bands covered by the RCA Bluebird twofers, for example). Because whenever the majors did a "selective" reissue on one of their former big band money earners they usually went by the "something for everybody" principle and almost always included a fair share of the often-heard "memory lane" items (making a point of trying to please whoever was left of the band's erstwhile bobbysoxer audience, it seems). Or when did you last see a vinyl reissue with a specific target like "The Jazz Side of ... (add name of "name" band with a mixed-bag discography)"? So I have found that the collector's labels often were/are the better bet if you are looking for the jazzier tracks on vinyl.

True (to the extent I am familiar with his post-war output - which is far frmo complete). But to follow up Rabshakeh's quest for vinyl recommendations right away, here are the Tommy Dorsey "late 40s/early 50s modernized swing big band" records that I'd recommend in the first place according to what I've acquired over time (these are mostly broadcasts and transcriptions, so no overlap with the RCAs): - "At The Fat Man's" (1946-49), Hep 9 - "1950-52", First Time FTR-1519 - "1950-1952", Solid Sender SOL511 (the First Time and Solid Sender have some overlaps) The below two are split about 50/50 between pre-1942 and post-war recordings and would be nice if found cheaply. It's amazing hearing the TD big band digging into the R&B/Hillbilly Boogie warhorse "Birmingham Bounce": - "Swing High", Sounds of Swing LP-106 - "Easy Does it" Swing Era LP-1003 And as for his brother Jimmy, the one below (also released on Musidisc 30 JA 5221) has some amazing moments featuring a young Maynard Ferguson: - "Diz Does Everything", Big Band Archives LP-1216

I cannot quickly come up with a verbatim quote but there are numerous jazz books where 1947 is commonly given as the "end of the big band era" because during that single year leaders of a comparatively large number of big bands (particularly several "name" bands) gave up leading big bands and scaled down to combo size or quit the leader role altogether. But like I said, if you look closer there were those that did carry on (sometimes after a brief hiatus to reorganize) so the big band days did not stop altogether and you cannot paint the situation in an "all back or white" picture, although the big bands no longer reigned supreme. At any rate, the recordings to confirm ongoing big band activities are there if you investigate deeper (although the post-1947 recordings initially often were either airshots, concert recordings or transcriptions because the AFM under Petrillo called out another recording strike effective as of 01/01/1948 that largely axed commerical recordings during 1948).

Once you have listened ot the contents you will realize that the "Sweat" flows there alright! 😁 Even the slower/bluesier tracks groove along fine. As an anecdote, "Turkey Hop "(Pt.1) - also present on that Vol. 3 - made it onto an R&B/Rockabilly dancefloor compilation LP in the 80s. I guess this was the first introduction to Lionel Hampton for quite a few hepcats/rockabillies.

The 10-LP series from the 70s on German MCA Coral may not have circulated on other continents but to the best of my knowledge the "Jazz Heritage" reissue series (though it orignated in France and was collated there) saw both French and US pressings (the US pressings had sturdier cardboard covers). Whatever secondhand copies show up here may come from any of the two countries, though I am not sure if the entire series was pressed in both countries, including all the 6 volumes on Lionel Hampton. Anyway ... I have Vols. 1 to 5 on French MCA but Vol. 3 also on US MCA (MCA-1331, the French pressing of Vol. 3 is MCA 510.103) and a sixth one ("Rarities", MCA-1351) as a US pressing too. So it looks like this series at least was around in the USA as well. And if you take into account that one of the 10 German volumes was dedicated to the Carnegie Hall All-American Award concert of April 1945 that was reissued in numerous forms through the years (including in the USA) then this reduces the difference of contents somewhat after all.

I was specifically referring to the immediate post-war period (roughly 1945-50) only because I have always been interested in this transitional period and how the bands (including big bands) evolved after the arrival of "modern jazz" in all directions, either towards bebop (such as with Woody Herman, Benny Goodman, Charlie Barnet and others), "Progressive" jazz (e.g. Boyd Raeburn, Claude Thornhill, Elliott Lawrence) or R&B (most Black bands). So I have a LOT of that stuff. I've never bought that often-colported story of the entire big band scene collapsing totally in 1947 as I had discovered early on that there were many that kept going, even though the going was far rougher. And this "crossover" music they produced has always been quite interesting to me. In fact, last night after JSngry's plug for Harry James I spun several of the 1948-50 LPs I have of his band and think they will be up your alley too. The 50s bands and their recordings will follow later. And I did take notice of why you are looking for what format.

Seems like this "post-war swing - or swing-based big bands" thread has passed into a "post-1960 all sorts of jazz big bands" thread that zigzags quite a bit. All very well (and of course it reflects each forumist's listening habits), but - Rabshakeh, if you still have an eye on post-WAR (meaning: starting with post-1945) swing-based big bands, I'll draft a more detailed vinyl list ASAP. But the direction of this thread is getting a bit hard to follow now so I am wondering where and what to focus on ... So I for one will try to be at last somewhat chronological. For the time being, starting with Lionel Hampton, those recommendations for later big bands are all very well, but if you want to get the full blast and experience the impact that the Hampton big band had in its day, take a shot at his post-war Decca and MGM big band studio recordings first of all. There have been at least two good reissue SERIES by MCA that cover the Decca period from 1942 up to 1950 (skip those "Best Of" albums unless you really want to limit yourself to a limited listening-in taster and feel the Hampton powerhouse band will be getting too much for you pretty fast - which can happen ... ). These two series were a 10-volume LP series on German MCA such as this one below (the Discogs listings of Lionel Hampton LP releases are a total mess so it is not easy to show the entire series under one link): https://www.discogs.com/release/6891400-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-Vol-4-1945-1946 And then there was a 6-LP set in the MCA "Jazz Heritage" series (as US or French MCA Coral pressings - this Vol. 3 incidentally truly ROCKS!): https://www.discogs.com/release/7855746-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-3-Sweatin-With-Hamp-1945-1950 The German series (covering the recordings chornologically) is for completists,the Jazz Heritage series has almost as much (the "essentials" and more), and both have their merits. The subsequent MGM recordings have been reissued in various guises. I have them here: https://www.discogs.com/master/1578506-Lionel-Hampton-And-His-Orchestra-Oh-Rock And then, to get an idea of the concert atmosphere of the 50s (there are PLENTY of records of these - but above all DON'T be discouraged by the blabber of snooty period reviewers who found all this was just some lowly "rock'n'roll circus"! ), have an eye on the following (going by the Discogs listings, for example, as there are numerous packagings so availability at the right price might dictate your choices): Apollo Hall Concert 1954 (N.B: NOT the N.Y Apollo but an excellent concert in Düsseldorf/Germany! ) Trianon (Chicago) 1954 Olympia 1956 (Paris concerts during a lenghty stay in France) "European Concert 1953" (IAJRC 31 - Paris, sept. 53, one of the very few documents of the great 1953 band that included Clifford Brown, Art Farmer, Gigi Gryce etc., though even here they are not very much in the foreground) Lionel Hampton in Vienna 1954 Vols. 1 and 2 (RST label) Of course you don't need all of these (unless you are evolving into a Hampton fanatic) but a sampling cannot hurt. Among the countless "odds and ends" live recordings by Hampton that have been reissued, one I think is worth singling out is this (regardless of which of the releases/pressings listed): https://www.discogs.com/release/2260684-Lionel-Hampton-His-Orchestra-Lionel-Hampton-His-Orchestra-1948 Fidelity is so-so but this is an intriguing and fairly bebop-influenced line-up (that includes young Charles Mingus and Wes Montgomery in the cast). So there you are for the (roughly) FIRST ten post-war years of the Lionel Hampton big band.

See here! 😁 Re- TTK's statement that there never was a good compilation of Sauter-Finegan, I'd stil recommend this LP as a starter/teaser (whatever ...): https://www.discogs.com/master/757317-Sauter-Finegan-Orchestra-Directions-In-Music In conjunction with Sauter-Finegan, I'd also recommend the recordings Eddie Sauter made for German radio in the later 50s. The record below AFAIK is the best compilation: https://www.discogs.com/release/10738993-Eddie-Sauter-In-Germany

@TTK: Which means Boyd Raeburn and Claude Thornhill would be on the edge between the big bands evolving from the swing era (as discussed in this thread) and an additional thread focusing on the decidedly more modernist ones you mentioned.

Seconded. And in a similar vein, this one: https://www.discogs.com/master/330274-Cootie-Rex-Cootie-Rex-In-The-Big-Challenge Not quite a big band, but a tentet anyway.

I will try to prepare a list but this will take some time and may in the meantime be partially superseded by others' recommendations (though, as you say, this era and style of jazz is in the shadow of the usual "first go-to accepted wisdom" within the jazz fraternity). BTW, I second JSangrey's plug for Harry James. There are few nice LPs of his post-war band that in part had a surprisingly modern book (e.g. his 1948-50 band featuring some arrangements by Johnny Richards and Neal Hefti).

Honestly, those Georgie Auld 50s recordings are a mixed bag in my humble opinion. Those that I've heard from that period of his recording career are O.K. but they are relatively middle-of-the-roadish, with In The Land of Hi-Fi clearly being near the top. So I am not quite sure how "advanced" (i.e. boppish/moderrn) you'd accept your post-war swing big bands to be. Would Boyd Raeburn, Elliott Lawrence or Claude Thornhill (or Earle Spencer, as an example where you need to dig deeper) be too "progressive" for you? Another one (though not quite as "progressive") would be Bobby Sherwood. Limiting myself at this time to "post-war" in the stricter sense, i.e starting right from 1945 onwards ("early post-war", therefore) and with working bands, how about - in a first step - exploring the 40s recordings by the Georgie Auld big band? One of my firm favorites of early post-war big band swing is anything by SAM DONAHUE. Both his transcriptions/airshots (released on Hep) and his commercial recordings for Capitol. Or TONY PASTOR (a personal quirk of mine, admittedly ... ) Or how about the modernized Benny Goodman band of about 1948 that has its bop influences? Or the Charlie Barnet Orchestra of 1946/47 on Apollo? Or how about trying the later 40s and 50s Les Brown orchestra whenever they were not infested by Doris Day vocals? 😁 (Butch Stone's zany vocals were more fun ...) Among post-war Black big bands, how about Gerald Wilson? Or the early post-war (mostly pre-R&B) big band of Johnny Otis? There are two nice LPs covering this period on Jukebox Lil, and (depending on how much of an R&B dose you'd accept), two 2-LP sets on Savoy that extend farther into the 50s. Same for Buddy Johnson and the 1951 big band recordings by Louis Jordan (yes, the one!). Other larger Black bands that kept going after 1945 such as Lucky Millinder or Tiny Bradshaw leaned much more overtly towards R&B. So it depends how much of that you'd be open-minded enough to file under "jazz". There are many more, particularly if you go on throughout the 50s but it is very hard for me to draw a line with regard to modernism and minimum size of the band. I am not sure what you are exactly looking for. Your "really great post-war swing records of the pre-war type" statement troubles me. Things and sounds DID evolve, and even tribute LPs to the old masters (such as those paying tribute to Jimmie Lunceford or Andy Kirk) were no carbon copy reenactments. If those 50s Georgie Auld items are THE overriding yardstick for you I'd almost have to point you towards 50s bands such as Ray Anthony, Ralph Flanagan, Jerry Fielding, Buddy Morrow or Ralph Marterie (which all have their swing highlights, but as for their total output ...?) Anyway ... the music is there, so yer makes yer choices and yer takes yer chances ...

Yes, this does sound amazing for a 1928 recording. I just attempted an aural comparison by listening to the same track on the French CBS vinyl reissue (The Complete Duke Ellington Vol. 1, 1925-1928, CBS 67264). And honestly, taking everything into account (and without any adjustments to the settings of my system for the LP) I don't find this LP reissue significantly worse in fidelity (not blatantly duller or more muffled). In a pinch you might find the banjo in the rhythm section a wee bit clearer to make out on this metal transfer (p.ex. prior to the scat solo). But that's only me ...

I wasn't totally serious either.