Big Beat Steve

Thanks Niko. Anyway ... a copy is on its way. (Cost me some 27 Euros which I find fairly reasonable) I don't mind some degree of scholarliness (in the sense of a really thorough approach that leaves no stone unturned in the way you double-check the facts you present, i.e. as a safeguard against sloppiness) and I don't mind a sideways look at social science, for example, either (when the context and the historical facts call for it). But as you will probably know, some manifestations of scholarliness can end up in stylistic and linguistic navel gazing that clouds the facts (and their presentation) for all its self-referencing showing-off of "erudition". In fact I am on the fence about another book of jazz history that clearly has heavy overtones of social science (but the subject calls for it) but it's kinda pricey ... (and no, it's not on Scarecrow Press 😄). Re- the Scott DeVeaux Bebop book you mention, it may be musicologically scholarly in places (but as a non-musician, who am I to complain, objectively speaking?), but not enough to put me off. And looking at the facts presented, what is in it is really good IMO, but still I find it distinctly lopsided with its excessive emphasis on Coleman Hawkins. And this should be taken into account - not that the reader should take the contents of the book as "The Gospel" on Bebop. "Non-representativeness" should only go so far IMO. Or he ought to have called the book something like "Coleman Hawkins, the Midwife of Bebop".

Thanks Niko. That does help. I had considered using an online translation tool but like you said, the Japanese word order is different (so this increases the "trials and errors"), and I had not found a quick way of getting the Japanese characters from the jpg file into the tool.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since there do not seem to be other threads about Japanese jazz around ... To make matters worse , this is not about a reissue but about an original: The current discussion re- books on Japanese jazz in the Jazz Books thread has prompted me to revisit related items in my collection. Among my few items of Japanese jazz from the eras of my stylistic preferences, I have the below 10-inch album from 1960 (bought many years ago out of curiosity about "older" jazz from that part of the world at a price that you can take chances at): As can be seen, there is nothing in non-Japanese characters except the song titles to indicate which track is by whom. I tried to find info on this on Discogs but the record is not listed there. And searching further in the Bruyninckx discography yielded NOTHING at all either. Recordings by Fumio Nanri do not match the period and labels (and even for the older ones they are reissues and not the original labels), and the Eiji Kitamura sessions listed are much more recent (and incomplete, BTW - there is an album by him from 1961 on Youtube). And I drew a total blank for Ikeda, Fujika and Kayashima. As if they either had not recorded beyond this LP unknown to Bruyninckx or their recordings have eluded discographers. Admittedly I had no idea this item is such an extreme obscurity. Through some educated (?) guesswork in deciphering characters on Discogs (where his LP on Victor LV-130 from that period is listed) I established that tracks A-2 and B-2 are by Eiji Kitamura. And stylistic criteria would indicate that A-1, B-1 and B-5 are by Fumio Nanri. My questions to forumists who may have some knowledge of the Japanese language or other info (does LORD list this LP?): Can anyone confirm my guess that the other tracks are by the artists listed in the order on the forn cover? I.e. A-3, B-3 by Misao Ikeda, A-4 and B-4 by Koji Fujika, and A-5 by Koji Kayashima? Thanks a lot to anyone who may be able to supply any info!

Thanks Niko. So this would be the one ... https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Nippon-Authenticating-Jazz-Japan/dp/082232721X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1QKM02PZ7ZC2B&keywords=Blue+Nippon&qid=1679922303&sprefix=blue+nippon%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-1 As for your expectations, for me it's the other way round. It would be part of my interest in the "history of jazz outside the USA". (I have books covering several countries - including regional histories within the country in some cases - on my shelves so this one would fit in well) And given my stylistic preferences a book that does not put the primary emphasis all that much on the avantgarde of relatively recent decades would suit me fine (yes, I realize this is where a lot of Japanese jazz came into its own, but anyway ... ) I would not expect this book to dwell only on Fumio Nanri in the chapter(s) on "early Japanese jazz", and I realize I'll be confronted with loads of names I've never heard of. But that's part of the process of looking into history (and learning). So I trust it wil not be too overly (and overtly) "scholarly". This often gets into the way of presenting the MUSIC in the first place.

Yes, 20 November 1961 was the Copenhagen date during that Scandinavian tour. And, FWIW, re- earlier questions about the Granz/Dolphy hookup, these concerts actually WERE a JATP event. Below is the promo ad from the November, 1961 isue of ESTRAD, and further below is a page from the Stockholm concert coverage in the December, 1961 issue of ESTRAD. (Sorry for that OT )

More precisely, november 1961 in this case. The Gillespie and Coltrane bands toured Scandinavia and shared the stage together for concerts in Denmark, Sweden and Finland. There seem to be recordings of a Coltrane concert in Copenhagen from that tour where the announcements by Norman Granz also were recorded.

I am not so sure it would have been a matter of who would have been "open" for what only in the direction that you seem to hint at. There is an interesting account of a candid moment with Eric Dolphy and his avantgardism in the Norman Granz biography by Tad Hershorn (p. 311): "Granz related a conversation with Eric Dolphy, then on tour for him, when he heard the avant-garde saxophonist playing straight-ahead blues after hours at a nightclub with some of Gillespie's musicians. He asked Dolphy why he couldn't play like that on the tour. 'No, people say I have a reputation for being modern, so I have to play modern.' " Who knows ... maybe Dolphy would actually have enjoyed an occasional recording date in a more straight-ahead setting with the likes of Lockjaw Davis after all?

Interesting (and understandable) idea ... Next time I spin my original HMV LP of "Courts The Count" (with exceedingly "pedestrian" cover artwork, alas) instead of the "Short Stops" twofer I will pull out my Jim Flora book as well.

Interesting to read that my "amateur" feelings of way back were not that different from what you sum up here from you pro stance. When I heard the first Roulette-era Count Basie big band recordings I felt the same kind of difference in volume and "excitement" (or should I say "bite"?) when compared to the recordings of the "Old Testament" band I was much more familiar with back then. But in line with what had happened in big band jazz in the 50s I just took this as signs of the times and quickly came to appreciate both for what they were. OTOH I never compared the "Courts The Count" sessions directly with the Basie charts but just took them as a tribute to Basie and a new reinterpretation of the Basie originals. Thanks - I'll remember this next time I stop by the shop.

Not so much a case of what I am "reading right now" here but rather of what I will be "reading next" ... Went to our #1 secondhand record store today after a 3-month hiatus, and found they semed to have scooped up one or two fairly large jazz collections recently (found some nice-to-have LPs), and as usual I took a look at their music book corner too. Which clearly showed one of these recent additions came from a book and discography-minded collector/owner ... So I guess I got carried away a little (again) ... Top to bottom: - JAZZ LIFE (by J.E. Berendt and W. Claxton, softcover, 1961 printing). The ORIGINAL edition of the book reprinted in a somewhat expanded version by Taschen a couple of years ago (some of these reprints at outrageously expensive "luxury" editions, and with faked author credits: It was J.E. Berendt, the German "jazz pope", who initiated the journey across the USA in 1961 and wrote the text, and William Claxton went along for the photography side but never was the main "author" as the Taschen cover layout would lead one to believe). A steal at 5 Euros! And handy as bedside reading/browsing matter. (I remember how overjoyed I was when I found an original hardbound copy of this - minus the dust jacket - at 50 Deutschmarks about 30 years ago ...) The internet has made it a lot easier finding items like this and copies of this book do come up here but prices generally are distinctly higher than today's find - sometimes FAR higher ... - Michel Ruppli, PRESTIGE Records 1949-1969. 1972 printing so certainly outdated reissue-wise, but as a LABEL sessionography it should still be useful, and at 5 Euros who would NOT have picked it up? I'd say ANY Ruppli discography is excellent value for money at that price ... - "Jazz in Deutschland" by Horst H. Lange (1966): A groundbreaking work on the history of (older) jazz im Germany. Lange was sort of a moldy fig taste-wise and his personal leanings were towards pre-war or even pre-big band era hot jazz, but it is an important work covering the era up to 1960. I've owned my copy since my latter high school days in the late 70s, but at 3.50 Euros I just could not let it sit there. I'll probably give it to a friend who is into pre-war "hot dance bands" (to point him beyond the UK which seems to be one of his main interests ) - "Vienna Blues" by Klaus Schulz (printed in 2010 - complete with CD, and only 3.50 Euros as well) - Biography of Fatty George (a cult figure of Austrian jazz - with a career and biography that in a way was the Austrian equivalent of Tubby Hayes). BTW, @Gheorghe, in case you read this: Remember we talked about Klaus Schulz and his "Jazz in Österreich 1920-1960" book in another thread? This shop has a copy of that one at only 3.50 Euros too, IIRC. (My copy bought several years ago wasn't frighteningly expensive but quite a bit more than that ...) I don't know what the availability and typical price rate for this book would be in Austria and it's a pity that parcel shipping costs would probably make it less worthwhile shipping it abroad. But if a German forumist fancies getting it I can drop in again there next week to see if it is still there. There also were loads of artist discographies of the "mimeograph-type printing" editions current in the 60s/70s - from Armstrong via Kenton to Miles Davis, Stan Getz et al. Not expensive either but I refrained because these have definitely been superseded by Bruyninckx etc. Somehow this shop doesn't seem to trust in music collectors reading much on music, or else their printed matter prices would not be what they usually are 😄(though sometimes their pricing can be a bit erratically high too). I remember some years ago I bought the 1944 and 1945 hardcopy editions of the ESQUIRE Jazz Book there for 5 Euros each ... )

You wouldn't believe ... I went to our #1 secondhand record store today (after an absence of 3 months), and lo and behold, among the recent arrivals (last month according to the price sticker) there was an original "Living Stereo" copy of "Afro Cuban Influence". I listened in on the shop's tryout turntable and headphones but it turned to have more pops and crackles than I would have liked it to have at the price of 20 Euros. And worse, at the beginning of side 2 there was a nasty crackling hiss for several turns that sounded as if someone had spun it briefly on an old Victrola ... But amazingly, in another bin of "R" artist records there sat an original mono copy of the same LP at the same price. I did not have time to sample that one (visually it IS VG+) and I figure this music ought to be experienced preferably in stereo anyway. So I am still on the fence about it. Browsing further, I saw there WAS a copy of "Fourth Dimension in Sound" too. (As if you had sent word to stock these items ... 😁) We'll see when I get there next time with enough time to listen in to that one too.

Listened to "Chances Are It Swings" last night and it clicked with me more than at earlier hearings (as far as I remember). It is more "conventional" (or should is say "straightforward"?) than many of his other 50s recordings IMO (more conventional than "Courts The Count" as well) but not in a bland way. It has its interesting twists and turns ("catchy" indeed). Larry Kart's comparison with Neal Hefti seems quite apt to me.

No, I don't (yet). I have most of his RCA and Atlantic output but only "Jazz Waltz" (which is interesting but an acquired taste IMO) from his post-RCA/Atlantic period. And I cannot recall having consciously seen "Afro Cuban Influence" in the usual outlets here (let alone at a "can't resist price"). And admittedly it's not been on my online high-priority list either. But I'll take your endorsements for these two as recommendations for the future.

Nice to see "Chances Are It Swings" is getting some thumbs up from a noted writer and reviewer. Period reviews were sort of lukewarm. I haven't played it for years either but these recommendations will be reason enough for me to spin it later today. Re- your "notable reasons", BTW, I take it that when you speak of the "short" solos you mean "concise solos to the point", i.e. not necessarily something to complain about? Elsewhere "short" solos on albums from that period have usually been faulted for "lack of space to stretch out" .... And as for the cheesecake cover, of course this was a nice touch (it reminds me of some of those Jonah Jones LP covers on Capitol) but what struck me most when I picked up this album in the 90s was that the model uncannily resembled a girl from our circle of friends - as if it was her in a jump back in time. Otherwise, I am a bit like TTK. I picked this up in the 90s too (though at a bit more than the proverbial $1) but I usually go to other Shorty Rogers albums first (the entire contents of the Short Stops twofer, the "Martians" albums including "Clicking With Clax" and the Richard Rodgers LP). So time to revisit this one now.

I wonder how many "Bixieland" LP covers there were. 😁 Condon LPs are not always that easy to pind down because a lot of his recordings (particularly from the pre-vinyl era as well as live recordings) have been repackaged so often that you have a hard time keeping track of which is which. I have almost never sought out Eddie Condon recordings actively - they rather just "came my way". But some which seem to go under their original (or "period") names througout their reissues that I consider fairly safe bets (in addition to "Bixieland") are: - Jam Sessions at Commodore (and in fact all of his Commodore recordings) - Town Hall Concerts (from the mid-40s, but they are hard to keep a straight overview of) - Ringside at Condon's - Coast-to-Coast Jam Session - Jammin' At Condon's And IMO there are recordings released under the leader names of various Condonites but with the same nucleus (including Condon) in the line-up that are just as worth listening in (e.g. George Brunis, Wild Bill Davison, George Wettling a.o.). But I'm just an "occasional Condon listener" and no completist at all so may well be unaware of all sorts of gems (e.g. many of his pre-Commodore recordings).

I've spun the "Rip Van Winkle" recording by Boyd Raeburn relatively often recently (the "Jewells" CD by Raeburn is currently in the stack of CDs to feed my car player) but I've never heard of (let alone heard) a Vivian Gary recording of that tune either, of course. But THANKS and hats off for your post on the Sarco label. No stone unturned and certainly the definite word on the subject, as usual ... 👍

Yes I KNOW the title is "Heath", of course, but would not have remembered offhand that he had the same heath ...er .. health problems as the two featured artists. So ... given THEIR notoriety, there was something Freudian about this kind of error ...

PJ-18: Picture of Health?? And this on a record featuring Chet Baker and Art Pepper? Wonder what kind of sly underhanded "humor" this is?

A - maybe - final question (for near-completeness sake) about this online resource of Down Beat: Would anyone know of an online source for the 1938 year of Down Beat (ideally in the form of PDF files)? Both the Worldradiohistory site and the archive.org website where these Down Beats (that visibly come from the same microfiche/scanned source) are accessible are missing the entire 1938 volume. So a gap remains between 1937 and 1939.

I just read up on this in the "Jazz in Österreich 1920-1960" book by Klaus Schulz, and the "Jazzland" club does not figure in there, so it must have opened after 1969. This was the second wave of traditional (aka Dixieland, aka oldtime) jazz that sprouted in Germany, too, throughout the 70s and was a sort of "revival of revival jazz". Similar to your "Jazzland", there was "Onkel Pö's Carnegie Hall" in Hamburg (a stronghold of this second Dixieland revival) that existed from 1970 to 1985 and featured decidedly modern or rock jazz-influenced acts at live jazz concerts as well, some of which were released on vinyl (as mentions of this club here by non-European forumists testify. ) Our #1 local jazz club (opening in 1972) of that period had been geared towards traditional jazz as well but did host artists like Dave Brubeck or Bill Evans too through the years. The hotel (where this downstairs club was located) closed a couple of years ago, along with the club. The club reopened recently under a new name but now caters to the "club-hopper"/lounge crowd (with some smooth jazz probably being as jazzy as it will ever become) and no longer has a stage for live music. On the few occasions I went to that club the acts went well beyond dixieland. I cannot recall having heard of any incidents along the "moldy figs vs sour grapes" lines. According to your stylistic preferences you went there or you didn't. And - as in Gheorghe's case - as the average age of the jazz audience overall had increased by the 70s/80s most of them must have mellowed with age, being glad to be able to catch some live jazz. And the "club" setup helped. The dance floor in front of the stage was relatively small, and concerts usually were "seated events" with most of the room filled with tables. And whatever dancing occurred was not so much jiving but usually more like some more or less spirited foxtrot dancing. With things sometimes probably getting a bit too staid. I remember one occasion we went to that club in 1990 with about a dozen of our friends to catch a band led by an expat Brit that billed themselves as a "barrelhouse" traditional jazz band but had a "Louis Prima Revival" side project going that was featured that night (reviving his Las Vegas Capitol-era tunes, but not - to my personal regret - his 30s small-band swing, but spicing the set up with some Louis Jordan tunes as well IIRC). We enjoyed ourselves, gathered in front of the stage, some couples started jiving and at one point three of our girls (in their early to mid-20s) who had brought their maraccas along hopped on stage, shaking their maraccas and moving to the rhythm - thus kicking some life (more in tune with THIS music) into the proceedings. For a moment the band looked baffled, but then carried on and seemed to enjoy all this more and more. Just like the obviously bemused audience at the tables who took their time to figure out what this was all about but in time probably took our maracca girls and the general excitement as part of the show they got for their money that night. After the set I remember overhearing the leader exclaiming to some of the regulars, "I sure have never seen anything like that before!" (Which in earlier decades would have been saying something!) But all this was part of the "revival of revival jazz" starting in the 70s. The stylistic feuds may well have been more intense among the still-teenaged crowds in the 50s. In FRANCE they definitely were. The Traditional Jazz public, in particular, quickly acquired a bad reputation for making their dislikes heard very loudly and clearly, with bulb horns, cowbells and other "instruments" added to augment their booing. And according to period reports it was not uncommon for "partisans" from either faction (though the trad-minded were more aggressive, it seems) making a point of trying to spoil the others' live events. (If Brownie reads this he may have some stories to share ...?)

As for "why Trad Jazz", I think the above thread from 2013 has most answers. I cannot find much to add (and will leave it to English forumists anyway - they will know better). Except that I was about to mention the "Restless Generation" book by Pete Frame for a background description of the evolution of the scene through the 50s but then saw I already had mentioned it in the earlier thread you linked (10 years already - how time flies ...). And as for the question "Why Trad Jazz when they could have had Rock'n'Roll as their teenage music?", it should be remembered that traditional jazz had found its audience quite a while before R'n'R really made an impact in Europe. We tend to think of 1954 as the start of R'n'R but in Europe it rather was 1956/57. Regarding records to recommend, this is a bit hard for me. Revival Jazz (US or European) is a niche part of my jazz interest and not at the core of my jazz preferences. I tend to pick up originals when I come across them at prices where you can just give them a try. I never cared much for the 60s "Stranger On the Shore", "Petite Fleur" or "Midnight in Moscow" kind of Trad Jazz(-cum-Pop?) chart hits but prefer the somewhat earlier European traditional jazz recordings, and some of my interest may come from an attempt to explore this as part of jazz history. I remember several years ago I bought an armload of Trad 45s (mostly Chris Barber, plus some Kenny Ball and Cy Laurie a.o.) at a clearout sale of our #1 local record shop but soon after this had me wondering "What was I thinking?" Though the price was almost impossible to resist and some records are quite good (for what they were intended) and showed the artists had paid their dues (e.g. EPs of "Chris Barber Plays the Music of Clarence and Spencer Williams"). When you go for LPs and unless you focus on reissue compilations, look at the 10-inch LP bins. As you have seen for yourself, revival jazz was a 45 singles and EP medium at the time (like music geared at the teenagers usually was in the 50s) and what LPs there were often were 10-inchers (even after 12-inch LPs had become the norm in jazz). Some LPs I find stand out from the crowd or provide a good sampling of the period productions (among those I am aware of which may be far from comprehensive): - "New Orleans Joys" - Chris Barber's Jazz Band & Skiffle Group (Decca) - "Jazz At The Royal Festival Hall" - Humphrey Lyttelton (Parlophone) - "Jazz Session with Humph" - Humphrey Lyttelton (Parlophone) - "Jazz aus der Eierschale" - Spree City Stompers (Germany) featuring Wild Bill Davison (something of a "seminal" 50s revival jazz record on the German scene) - "Fatty George spielt Dixieland" (Telefunken) (an Austrian who straddled the fence of trad and modern with his band that was at home in both idioms) - "Dixieland Ball" (Brunswick) - a 1956 V.A. LP with some of the major revival bands from Germany and Switzerland - "Dixieland!" - The Two Beat Stompers (Brunswick) - another of the major German traditional jazz bands (feat. Emil Mangelsdorff in the lineup), rec. 1954 to 57 An intriguing item: - "Barber At The London Palladium" (Columbia, Philips, MFP - depending on what pressing you stumble upon) - Chris Barber at a Poll Winners' concert of 1961, featuring Joe Harriott who sat in on some numbers ... And then there was Sidney Bechet. His European recordings - as well as those of his French acolytes (with or without him as the featured soloist) - are a history to itself, enough for a separate post. As are major revival jazz acts from other European countries. The Dutch Swing College Band (DSCB), for example, had numerous LPs out, and you cannot really fault them for their musicianship. They were more than a notch above the typical home-made dixieland-skiffle combos. And if you'd like to sample how revival jazz was popularized elsewhere in Europe while the UK had "Trad" (and are not taking this too seriously 😁), check out Papa Bue's Viking Jazz Band from Denmark when he jazzes up old nursery rhymes or the Old Merry Tale Jazz Band from Germany who had a thing going with jazzing up popular songs from the 20s or folk tunes. As did the Feetwarmers from Germany (including Klaus Doldinger in some of their early lineups) - and the DSCB, too. On another note, some well-established European revival jazz bands of the 50s and early 60s may have done some of their best work acompanying visiting (or resident expat) U.S. jazzmen of the older school (Albert Nicholas, Nelson Williams, Benny Waters, Edmond Hall a.o.). Another wide field.

Correct on all accounts (except that Grappelly never was part of the traditional jazz scene but was a swing man throughout - with some "modernized" leanings later on). Sweden and Italy had their "trad" scenes and bands too, for example. Cannot offer any recollections (am far too young for that, unless you refer to the 70s traditional ("Dixieland") jazz scene in Germany too (which already was an evolution of the early post-war and 50s traditional jazz scene here. More later on when I have more time to expand on it. The European traditional jazz scene of the post-war period seems to be a touchy subject, though. Often dismissed as it certainly had too much of a very basic "home-made" quality to it. But it was accessible and one easy way of getting the young'uns into jazz. As for your impression of the UK "trad jazz" recordings you "inherited", it all depends on what records and artists these exactly were. There WERE artists and band leaders to be reckoned with well beyond the "trad" fad - Humphrey Lyttelton, Alex Welsh, Max Collie, Chris Barber et al. As for the European big bands - yes, they were there in the 50s and early 60s too (long before Doldinger and Herbolzheimer in Germany, for example, lest anyone refer to these right away). But they usually were and are given short shrift for several reasons: U.S. authors sneered at most of them (though many bands certainly were fairly able to hold their own against Ray Anthony - and definitely his Brother Lee Roy, Ralph Flanagan, Ralph Marterie, Billy May and others in that league), European authors and fans appreciated them back in the day (so you would have to look up contemporary publications to read up on them) but later on this audience found they had "outgrown" them (towards modernism, of course) and did not wish to be reminded of their earlier tastes, often dismissing them outright. Beyond the problem of really excellent rhythm sections often being in short supply, of course there was the eternal problem of almost all of the these European big bands being unable to survive on their jazz "book" alone in their everyday business. They had more commercial "books" (which figured prominently in their live appearances and recordings - so you have to fine-comb their recordings for the jazzier "gems" - which there were, though). OTOH, as far as I have read even the outright U.S. jazz big bands had their commercial "books" for their one-nighters and residencies, even Basie, or Lunceford with his "waltz" book, for example. (Usually conveniently forgotten by jazz historians, though) BTW, getting back to the UK "trad" scene, take the time and watch both parts of this 1956 short from start to finish to catch a bit of the appeal and atmosphere of the times. It IS rewarding IMO in a time-capsule sort of way:

Reissues would suit me perfectly fine too but over here they were not all that common on LP (at least not during the periods and in the places I looked at least tentatively for them), unless you happen(ed) to stumble upon a cache of someone unloading their soul jazz LP collection.

Not something I would have picked up, sadly. And 50s-60s Eurojazz platters have been rare as hens' teeth at all times anyway (and then there were certain Asian pillagers who exploded the price levels for good ... ) But let's get back to Shirley Scott now.

Above all a case of availability and demand. If I had had the opportunity of making the rounds of the typical fleamarkets, garage sales, thrift shops and secondhand record stores in some fairly major metropolitan area of the USA (particularly if on either coast) in the, say, 90s and very early 2000s for any (though limited) length of time I probably would have had to rent a 20-foot container for shipping my hauls (across the board, music style-wise) back here. 😁 In short, essentially ZERO comparability overall.