Big Beat Steve

Thanks, James, that sheds some useful light on it all.

Re- Nellie, I'd just as much hail the appearance of bro' JOE Lutcher. Nice set indeed - a lot is and sounds familiar, but quite a few aren't. And he did indeed dig deep. Regardless of all the "grey market" CDs that flooded the reissue scene in the late 90s and early 2000s ("Stompin'", anyone?) and the not quite so grey-marketish on Blue Moon and Classics, for example, this shows that you can dig even deeper and find there still is a LOT of never-reissued R&B out there. And you're not scraping the barrel yet.

That's not the 40s (and the time frame of this topic ) anymore, but never mind ... . This 2-LP set , however, is a sampler/compilation of the Jazztime USA recordings (a nice one indeed as I found out again when I spun it again the other day). I'd rather advise to go for the three individual Vols. 1, 2 and 3 that were released on Coral at the time. Vol. 2 was reissued as Vol. 13 of the "Jazz Lab" LP series on German MCA in the mid-70s (the series with the silly generic laboratory flasks on the front cover - no doubt you will remember them if you've been 'round the block long enough ). I never checked the available reissues of the others as I had found originals of all three "Jazztime USA" 12in LPs without much difficulty. Before those 12in LPs, two 10in LPs and a 45 with part of that material had been issued (on German Coral, for example). The compilation you showed still serves its purpose, though, as it includes 5 tracks (if I compared correctly) that are not on the 3 individual LPs of "Jazztime USA" released in the 50s.

I have the Blue Note, Prestige and Eurojazz ("Catalogue of Jazz Disc in Europe") volumes - from the Jazz Critique issues - of this series (bought them new by mail order when "Jazz is Beck" in Munich stocked them in the mid-90s). I would have bought the West Coast Jazz book too but they did not have that one and I did not even know about it at that time. (I see that you bought at least one of them from Beck too but IIRC my copies did not cost 60 DM each) I bought them mainly as discographical reference books (cannot read Japanese either, of course) with some added direct reference to the covers (the minuscule size of the artwork gives you only a rough idea anyway). Even without the main text they do come in handy and I find I pull out the Prestige and Eurojazz books relatively often.

Yes, lack of imagination and/or background knowledge (including - as you say - awareness of avilable resources). The slack I'd cut them is because this overall is one of the not sooo huge problems with visualizing the text of such documentaries. And haven't those hacks compiling the accompanying material for music documentaries been shown by the music industry itself that it all doesn't matter THAT much? As you may have noticed one of my pet peeves is the total mismatch between the date/era of the photo of the featured artist on the cover and the recording period of the music on the disc. The 70s/80s were bad in this way but even some recent reissues blundered badly in that respect. OTOH, look at how often it hapens in documentaries that they talk about some event that happened in the 30s or war years and then you see some coarse-grained "moving images" with Tin Lizzies cajoling through the streets. This is something I personally find even more aggravating. And no, when they talk about 40s amateur nights at the Apollo I do NOT want to see a pic of the outside of the Apollo with loads of garish, angular 70s US hulks of iron parked at the curb! Ruins the visual impact ... . Same complaint like yours, just different accents ...) And so on and so on ... But like you said, considering the intended audience this probably doesn't matter - except to history detail-minded geeks like they are around here.

Totally agreed. This sort of inaccuracies in these documentaries happens too often. And you are spot on that getting it right cannot be that much harder. I'd just cut them a bit of slack with the mismatch of text and images: A lot of these mismatches no doubt IS sloppiness or carelessness but could it be that they did not have any good images or footage to go EXACTLY with what they were talking about at that very moment? I also wonder (though I do not know abouot the legal side) if maybe in some cases copyright reasons have an impact on the use of certain images, e.g. if the estates of the photographers want BIG money for the use of one of their stills for a couple of seconds?

Roy Byrd has been served well with vinyl reissues (including a nicely done Bear Family twofer focusing specifically on the Mercury label recordings from New Orleans) and I have what I need of his earlier recordings. IIRC quite a few of the Helen Humes tracks listed are on various reissue LPs from the Mr R&B stable. I did notice the presence of Dinah Washington on the black "Story" box I own but mistakenly had been under the impression there was a lot more by her on the radio box.

Ha, Captain (thanks BTW for ging to the trouble of placing the track listing here), so I was right abut the major names but wrong about Dinah Washington. I see I did well not to have bought the radio box, then, as several of those artists had been served with accessible reissues before (of which I did have quite a handful so duplications would have been enormous and I cannot see one single artist there I'd place on a "completist" list - with the possible exception of Jay McShann). You're welcome from this side too, Tom.

It would help if you'd describe a bit more exactly which box set you are referring to. There were two in the 90s - one in a longish/rectangular black box with gold lining and another one with a box (plastic IIRC) somewhat in the shape of a 40s bakelite radio. The latter one made the headlines due to its optics but I felt it was a bit heavy on the obvious, major names (such as Dinah Washington). I bought the other (rectangular) one new at the time as it seemed to offer a wider variety of artists but I never got around to comparing the track listings with those of the "radio" set. There was quite a bit of overlap but I don't remember the details. I haven't listened to a lot of my box in quite a qwhile but do like it and would not part with it, but then 40s and early 50s R&B has a special place in my collection. The set is varied enough - from straight bluies to combo and big band (Johnny Otis. Buddy Johnson) R&B, but quite a bit of it has been reissued elsewhere too. So it all depends on what else you have and how far your interest goes. So do check the track listings beforehand and compare them with what you have already. As a taster it isn't bad at all IMO, though.

I used to go there a couple of times during my visits to London throughout the 90s too but was sort of unimpressed/disappointed. It may have been a good place for Japanese imports (which were out of my monetary range for the most part anyway) but I found them rather weak in what they stocked (or, rather, did not) outside the major labels. Even in the first half of the 90s when vinyl was still around their range of smaller collector's labels (of which the UK abounded) covering jazz styles OLDER than hard bop wasn't that impressive, at least for my tastes. And strangely enough items on Charly, Ace, Affinity etc. often were more expensive than at specialist shops up in Camden Town or at Mole Jazz.

I'd tend towards the Second Herd too. But this is a band where I find it hard to take a decision between the Band that plays the blues, First and Second (and possibly Third) Herd. And I'd leave in the novelty vocals. They are part of the band into the context of its time. I'd rather skip Woody Herman's attempts at being a ballad singer in his earlier bands (little wonder that for a long time you'd see them reissued only on those "In disco order" LPs).

Corner, you ought to have quoted BillF and not me. It was HIS post you are referring to.

My mistake, sorry. He certainly WAS a character, and his radio shows spinning all that 20s and 30s or 40s dance bands, singers and semi-jazz (but often outright jazz too) made you aware of a lot of artists that you had never heard of before and later knew better where to place them when you came across them in the record stalls. Budding collectors learnt a lot there. Only his "Frenchized" pronounciation of those U.S. artists' names sometimes was a tough nut to crack (particularly at his talking speed ). It took me a while to figure out, for example, that that "Abbé Le Mans" band leader he was talking about actually was Abe Lyman! Same here. Even in the 70s and 80s this WAS an issue, particularly if you tried to catch relatively far away stations on AM and long wave radio that had interesting music shows. Made me quite tolerant of the fidelity of not quite so pristine 78s.

I am perfectly well aware of the difference between fake bidders bidding to net the seller more money and the scenario that you and I described. I described it as ANOTHER reason (i.e. a reason different from shill bidding) why some bids may have gotten out of hand, particularly in the earlier days of eBay. And the risk of accidentally winning an auction at what you yourself normally would not be willing to pay and would not be able to afford in the long run of course was very real. I do not really remember and did not keep track of how far the other bidders went when they raised that "deep pocket" bidder but his winning bids always WERE high. And I do remember that when I tried it myself (because I had been irked a number of times too when I saw that character's name as the starting bidder and realized that "there goes your chance of winning THAT auction too") I cautiously went in $10 instalments and found that even at something like $40 or 50 for a simple (and not exceedingly rare) 50s US car magazine I incredibly enough had not had the leading bid yet. But of course I had taken a look at his bidding history on a number of similar previous auctions. In those days, with actual bidders' names being displayed, things were VERY transparent.

That may be one reason. But in the day when they still showed bidders' names there sometimes were other factors at work. I remember one case (that went on for a very long time) where one particular bidder in the field of automotive collectabilia consistently placed insanely high bids that often went way beyond the actual "market values" of the items in question and was clueless or careles enough to place his sky-high bids as starting bids. This quickly pissed off a lot of other bidders who never got wining bids in at what would have been a decent and affordable price that at least halfway reflected the actual value. I got to talk via mail with two of them (one with whom i had "crossed swords" in a number of auctions. though in a sporting way - and in fact we went on to echange material off eBay, and one who both sold and bought lots on eBay). That bidder (who at that time used a ebayer pseudo that clearly hinted at his actual name) was known in some of these circles as the owner of quite a collection of Italian sports cars and therefore evidently had money to burn. In fact those other bidders (and there probably were more) were pissed off enough to make a point of RAISING his starting bids even on items they weren't interested in because his bidding tactics (or rather lack of) made it evident after a few checks how high he'd bid outright. So even though nobody else may have been interested they made dead sure (and I admit I occasionally joined the game at a lower level ) that whatever he bid on he would not get at, say, the starting bid of $9.99 (in case no one else bid too) but would have to shell out $50 or more in each and every case (and at that sum his STARTING bids had not even been reached yet ...). Served him right ...

I think Gheorghe was referring to the typical "hip fast talkers" of the day. That's another segment of radio presenters. More akin over here to how Jean-Claude Averty (a very fitting name - "averti" in French meaning "in the know" ) acted on French radio in his long-standing "Les cinglés du Music Hall" show. He wasn't just fast talking, but agitated, exuberant and almost on the verge of going overboard with his sheer enthusiasm. Even more so because there was a second presenter on the show who (probably totally unintentionally but just dictacted by HIS personality) acted as a sort of "straight man" to Averty, and this brought out the airwaves presence and contrast of Averty even more sharply.

I remember you told that story before. Not very pleasant for sure ... (Another chapter in the section of "famous jazz musicians being pricks and pains in the butt in their personal interactions ... makes you wonder what's harder to bear - "Mister Know it All" or someone taking advantage of you and living off your back because he figures "he is entitled to it because is a celebrity" ? - The latter characterization incidentally was one told to me by someone in the know about your Austrian #1 tenor sax player of that period) I remember something like your experience with Joe Newman that crept up between the lines a long time before in some reivew of a tour involving Joe Newman. Sounded to me like a case of some bitter man who felt he had not received his star dues.

Reminds me of an "encounter" at a swap meet (when you usually find a number of stalls with non-automotive "vintage" items too) back in the late 80s/early 90s: One stallholder had set up a table with a fair number of new, unopened cartons of cigarettes of 2 or 3 different brands (holding 200 cigs each) that clearly dated back to the immediate pre-war era. The cartons looked clean, tidy and really almost like "off the shelf". On top of the cartons sat a board proclaiming "Can still be smoked!" Apparently the seller had unearthed a stock that had been forgotten for decades and had opened a pack to try out the goods and found them "satisfactory". Being a non-smoker I did not dare to ask him what he usually smoked to find these OK and would not have been able to judge for myself anyway ...

Opened and used a glass of stewed plums the other day that was about 3 1/2 years beyond the use-by date (for use as a topping for a dish on a Sunday when no shops were open).This was 2 weeks ago and I am still around. But I agree that usually I am very wary of canned foods that are WELL past their use-by date. A couple of months - no worry, but years? No.

I think once anyone's collection exceeds a certain number of records a discography is a must as a reference opus (and maybe as a "window shopping" catalog to whet your appetite ) - and to check which is which in order to avoid excessive duplications before buying (unless you have moneys to burn). Rust, Jepsen (books) and Bruyninckx (on CD) do it for me (Lord is way overpriced IMO for what I will get out of it beyond Bruyninckx et al and includes a LOT that is of no interest to me), and along with Goodrich-Dixon and Leadbitter/Slaven for blues plus Nicolausson, Ginell/Coffey, Lange and various others (including internet discographies) for niche segments of my music largely cover most of my needs. And I'd feel fairly naked without them. Which brings up one particular favorite subsegment of mine from that era: R&B going Bop or Bop ging R&B Leo Parker is a prime example. Gene Ammons too. And some late 40s/early 50s R&B men at times got in some boppish overtones too. (Frank Motley & his "Fat Man's Scat" on Gotham is fun!)

Some time ago i picked up a dirt cheap copy of MoJ R2CD 8004 "Charlie Christian" at a local record clearout sale. It turned out to be a 2-CD "Best of" of the 8 individual MoJ reissues of Charlie Christian recordings (MJCD 24 to 75). I had figured to use it for the car CD player but as it includes several tracks I do not have elsewhere yet (a.o. reasons because I totally missed the MoJ phase at the time) it went into my collection. I wonder if there were other "Best of"s. I think what may have contributed to the MoJ reissues being overlooked by many (me too - I just must have seen them here and there in the shops) was their incredibly nondescript, bland and uninspired cover "art"(?)work. They look horribly like a bunch of budget labels such as "History" (an Israeli-German co-project) that were around at roughly the same time. As a result, the INITIAL visual impetus to just "spring for them" wasn't there IMO. Understatement is all very well but there was not much to make them stand out even with an intentionally simple "corporate identity" look (contrary to the Classics series - at least they had a wide range of different colors though they can be tiring too if you see a stack of them).

A real discography (not necessarily the Lord one) should be more helpful (apart from all the info that is out there on the internet). Discogs is useful but spotty. I did not check the details of the covers you posted but clues to what is on these individual reissues include are there. E.g. I am fairly sure even without checking closer that the "The Champ" LP features tracks from the early 50s DeeGee recordings that Diz made and that ended up with Savoy and were reissued there. The name of John Coltrane listed among the featured artists there is the clincher for the directions that further investigations ought to take. And the "Paris Concert" record on GNP (with a cover photograph hardly matching the period of the contents) is the 1953 Pleyel concert (cf. "Mon Homme"!). Both items way outside the listing provided by EKE BBB, of course.

Looks like it's not so much the "prices" that are insane ($9.99 starting bid was reasonable) but what is insane is that there are two out there who want it at ANY cost it seems and are battling it out now. Reminds one of the time when Asiatic ebayers like ondemand12 were running up the bids almost everywhere on the somewhat rarer items.

Indeed. In the case of a box like this Charlie Christian would no doubt be THE major seling argument. BG? Not so much anymore IMHO,. There are an AWFUL lot of live dates and airshots of his late 30s/early 40s band out there on the market, and no matter how great the band as such is there is a point when you just tire of him runing the scales (to put it very, very bluntly ).

Any opinions on the Carnegie Hall concert recordng of 29 Sept. 1947? Re- the concert at Salle Pleyel in February, 1948, here is a cutting from a French family magazine of spring, 1948, telling the touching story of a young boy struck down with polio at the age of 13 and finally venturing out among the public (though still bed-stricken) at age 17 in 1948 to see his idol Dizzy Gilespie live in concert at Pleyel.