Big Beat Steve

Good for you if you have the choice. Over here it's a bit different. And across-the-pond shipping rates kill many deals anyway. I had the same initial feelings about "Straight Down The Middle" being relatively MOR (by 50s standards), including because of the cover. "Under Analysis" (which has no Jim Flora cover either, after all) is a bit more straightforward than earlier albums too (in a way I can live rather well with, the semi-classic experimental far-out stuff on some of the other albums is something I'd need to take in smaller doses). I'll eventually get the "Middle" LP too, I guess.

Charlie Henry (p), Mundell Lowe (g), Francis James (b), Joe Venuto & Sperie Karas (perc), Eddie vito (harp).

Mousie Alexander, sez Bruyninckx.

Sorry to disagree, Pim, but either you have only scratched the surface yet or you have come across the wrong labels and missed out on others: Agreed that decent and thoughtful packaging, accurate session detials, booklets, artwork (in tune with the contents), photos etc. do make the difference. BUT (referring to your above points): 1. What's wrong with being able to buying all Harold Land albums on 4 CDs for the price that others would regularly levy from you for one single CD of "The Fox"? Not a bad way IMO to start and explore more than you would be able to afford otherwise. To the extent I have checked the Real Gone Jazz label, for example, I find the sound quite OK. And when you or I want to read more about Harold Land (no, I have the Lands on vinyl that are most essential to me but let's take this as an example), how about pulling out Ted Gioia's or Robert Gordon's books on West Coast Jazz? Reading up on one's preferred subject to get some sound background info is an excellent idea anytime but there IS plenty out there to do your reading. And this can inspire you both ways. Reading up on soul jazz, for example, got me to check out a Jimmy Smith box set on Real Gone Jazz (not least of all because even the measliest BN reissues command exaggerated prices just because they are on BN). 2. Proper is OK soundwise but have you ever wondered about where Proper seem to get their stuff from? (See earlier posts in this thread and elsewhere) Don't the duplications or overlaps make you wonder? So who did the restoration work for whom in the end and what's the fundamental, ongoing, constant difference, then, to labels that additionally skimp on their presentation? Except a somewhat better presentation? 3. Weird choices in combining: Happens with LOTS of labels, even legit ones. Proper is no total exception, particularly with their theme compilations. As for the bonus tracks, one man's meat is another man's poison. Yet maybe it's a better and a more thoughtful gesture to the collector than many of those Japanese reissues that limit themselves to one single 12" or even 10" LP on one CD - and yet they sell these CDs with measly short playing times at top money! 4. True to some extent but brick and mortar stores are no longer representative anyway. Besides, you cannot blame all the PD labels all the time for making it unworthwhile for the majors to do their own reissuing. Many majors just don't give a hoot about that jazz niche market anymore, except when it comes to recycling the obvious Miles, BN and Trane things in regular intervals. Many of them would never have covered the fields that some of the PD labels regularly do. And if you don't feel like going to Discogs, try Amazon. So if the only exceptions to you are Proper and JSP you so far have overlooked a lot if presentation is a key factor to you (understandably, I tend to feel the same). From what I have seen and bought, Fresh Sound, Fantastic Voyage, Blue Moon, Acrobat, Zircon, Westside, Document and others do take care with their booklets, details, artwork etc (to varying degrees). Some of them may be off your radar if you are mainly into post-war LP-era jazz but still you just cannot generalize. Particularly since JSP you expressly mentioned is a mixed bag too (see an earlier post of mine). Not just soundwise but also in their packaging. Placing part of the session details of one CD onto the leaflet of another CD of the box set and this through 4 CDs in all directions so you have to move to and fro to check which is which sounds very much like the artwork people, layouters AND quality control dept. were either drunk or couldn't have cared less. BTW, the "rightful copyright owner" is a very vague term when it comes to the P.D. laws applicable in EUROPE (and therefore to you and me). Once the stuff is pre-sometime in 1962 and therefore was first released 50 or more years before in 2012 when the European copyright laws were updated it IS in the Public Domain. Besides, since you mention Japan: Be careful when you choose your Japanese CDs and check for the fine print on the back inlay. It might say "Not for sale outside of Japan". Now why might it say this? My take (until proven to the contrary ) is that they did license the stuff but at a fee that covers only domestic sales in Japan and therefore is way lower than the fee for worldwide distribution. Yet they DO sell their items worldwide. A fair and square deal with the rightful copyright owners that you find important? Food for thought, and no hard feelings .. basically we are not THAT far apart, I think ...

OK, ugly enough. Thanks. Like I said, largely agreed. I find many of the examples shown above just superfluous. Presentation-wise, I don't find ALL of them "ugly", just so-so or plain bland. But again - since even the majors sometimes do repackaging where the artwork reeks of some "hey the daughter of exec X did some art studies so lets shove a job her way to redo a pic of some photograph" approach (called "artistic rendering" thereonwards) though it's an unnecessary effort, really, I have resigned myself to gnash my teeth during part of my buying. Tastes differ widely, though. And to be quite honest, I find the artwork of the much-beloved (French) Masters of Jazz (PD too IIRC) series from the 90s, for example, just plain dead boring. Not even minimalist, which can be graphically and visually interesting, but just run of the mill and unimaginative. A presentation below its value. Particularly since there were other (less well-programmed) reissue labels that looked quite similar.

OK, please translate foogliness. Did I misunderstand it as "ugliness"? In THAT part I agre only partially. for one reason because even rights holders have been guilty of bad, bad presentation and artwork. As for cheapness, largely agreed. With the partial exception of Acrobat (for the reasons given). And as for multi-CD sets such as Enlightenment and Real Gone Jazz, cheap in the sense of minimalist presentation - yes, but adequate for the selling price, and I can imagine less "thoughtful" packaging than combining a certain number of full LPs on a number of CDs. So yer gets what yer pays for (search me why Amazon resellers see fit to charge three-digit figures for some of these sets that seem to have gone OOP - can anybody looking for such stuff be stupid and gullible enough to fall for THAT? 10 times the original list price??)

So One Day redoes the "Cruisin'" series now? That's which iteration exactly since the first round in the vinyl days? I tend to disregard this kind of CD reissues when they recycle stuff that has been around a million times so can't say much there. Not Now is familiar only through this forum (cannot recall having consciously had one in my hands ever, and others like One Day or Chestnut do not ring a bell, and I wonder how many Goldies labels there have been even in the CD era alone). However, the one Enlightenment box set (Gene Ammons) that I have does what it is supposed to do for me at the price it sells at (just listening in again now - fidelity sounds acceptable, I don't find it flat or chopped but i have no original pressings to compare any of them with), given that other preferable reissues - as outlined above - are not easily available. I tend to go for this kind of reissues mainly to fill gaps. And despite initial reservations I admit it IS convenient to be able to check off several LPs' worth of material reissued comprehensively in one go. As the reissue policy of the Prestige/Fantasy stable has become a total shambles after having changed hands again and again I do not even have a guilty consience. And if I'd wanted to explore the Jazz Crusaders more I'd probably pick up the above set too - as a starter that can go into the car when other, individual reissues come my way in a format that is worth it to me. There is MORE than enough out there that you shell out full price for anyway. Overall IMHO it is just a matter for everyone to decide personally whether he is OK with their reissue policy or not. Re- Acrobat, this label has been discussed before. I don't like it that they seem to sell CD-Rs as the real thing in recent times but don't know if this is just for repressing runs of earlier releases or a general policy these days. The ones shown above are on the edge for me - the Floyd Dixon might be one to go for if I'd want to add to my Dixon LPs, provided I do not end up with too many duplicates. But from what I can see of the programming of this one it is probably a piecemeal affair like certain Proper Box sets. I dunno .... OTOH, those Acrobat reissues I have bought do look like they were compiled with the collector and more serious fan in mind as they fill niches overlooked by others - e.g. label compilations such as Derby, Atlas, Macy's, Melodisc, and obscure artist coverages (Peppy Prince, 30s vocal harmony groups). Fine enough with me. The presentation and quality of the booklet contents, for example, varies but often appear to have been done very, very seriously (including liner notes by Dave Penny and Opal Louis Nations, experts in that field). Not what a shoddy recycling package for a fast buck would look like (Who'd get rich on Macy's or Melodisc or Peppy Prince anyway?) So I really don't know what those who whine in permanence about those PD labels really expect. ... Soundwise, the Acrobats I have go back to the 78 rpm era so the sound varies and you will have to make allowances. The Melodisc set, for example, is nothing to write home about for hi-fi bugs as they seem to have done little to the background noise of the apparently "previously well enjoyed" originals they had to work with. But in a pinch I'd rather have the hiss and crackles than some excessively flattened denoising. But that's only me ... As for the "foogliness" (ugliness?) of the packaging/cover artwork - come on, King Ubu, there have been lots of "legit" releases or reissues that are way worse. And even in the PD sector some are worse than several of these. I find the Grooveyard, 100 Hits Jazz, Greatest Jazz Legends and Fifties Forever above just dull, nondescript, off-putting and boring and would probably pass them up in any bin. As for the rest, IMO most of them look just "average" to me, not striking, not insulting, just what you will have to live with if you want the music. Don't tell me, for example, that the greatest of care went into the artwork of the Zoot Sims Lost Tapes CD on SWR Music (a totally legit release of a 1958 concert). What were they thinking, selecting photos of him from a totally different/later period that, to top things, are not that flattering anyhow, compared to the 1958 period? I may be too much of a stickler for such cover artwork details (too much interest in historical details and too many commercial graphic arts parents in my family, I guess ...) but THIS sort of cover does not set the mood for the contents.

I have no qualms about having picked up the Lonehill Rusty Bryant set with his 2 modern jazz LPs on Dot. (I think it may actually have been upon a recommendation here when I asked about those LPs in my early forum days c.2005/6). There just was no other option (that Japanese reissue must have been one of the "marketed for something like one day, 12 minutes and 34 seconds and then gone poof - OOP" things so at least from this part of the world that was irrelevant and no option even if one had been aware of the existence of that reissue - I wasn't awyway. In the post-vinyl era most Japanese reissues were notoriously unavailable in Europe, and mail ordering them from Japan usually was a pain in the you know where ...). And, hey , some time before that I had even picked up a CD of his honkin' R&B sax period - containing his (first) "America's Greatest Jazz" LP thoughtfully retitled "America's Greatest Rock'n'Roll" here, plus assorted 45s, all reissued on Carolyn 101 (now THAT was a REAL bootleg, I know ... one of those done by collectors for collectors and circulated on the record stall circuit at concerts ). But in the time thereafter I not only snapped up an original of that first Dot LP (a VERY early Japanese issue that must have been contemporary with the original release) but also an original 10" on (UK) London featuring two thirds of the same tracks again - but the cover was nice (and different). So I hope I made up that way ... "Entry level" is it, and that's what they are all about. I never liked their artwork (actually it was a permanent turn-off and one of those cases where I had to force myself to buy them anyway). So - like I tried to explain above - I did take the plunge when they had some long-searched-for track(s) I had not been able to find on other reissues in those vinyl days, and their low price offset the rest. But, hey , the GOJ CDs I picked up secondhand are excellent stuff for the car CD player.

I bought a few LPs from the "Giants of Jazz" label in the 80s (they were cheap and all over the place in the special price bins in the record shops for quite a long time here), usually if they had some track(s) that were impossible to find on other reissues at the time. one I remember was a Coleman Hawkins compilation that was the first one I ever saw that had his "Picasso" solo recording. I got the "The Jazz Scene" album more than 15 years ago but still have that LP for this particular tune (I have all the others from the GOJ LP on other reissues) as its fidelity (not bad to start with) is a bit better than the VG+ "Jazz Scene" original. But I unloaded most of the other GOJs once I had all the material on other, more thoughtfully compiled LPs. I never got into Giants of Jazz CDs but about 2 years ago I picked up the Wardell Gray and Fats Navarro CDs from that label at 1 euro each at a clearout sale at a local used record store. Of course I had all the tracks on these CDs on "name" reissues but they were intended for my car CD player anyway and get lots of spins there. While we are busy throwing more names into the ring, here is one PD label I do like: FANTASTIC VOYAGE from Britain. As for the target markets of their reissue program, I'd rank them somewhere between/among Jasmine, JSP and Vocalion. I became aware of them a couple of years ago when for some reason I did an online search of Ina Ray Hutton, and lo and behold - they had a comprehensive 3-CD set of her orchestra . Bought at once, and very pleased. Decent sound, very nice presentation and artwork (by someone who has a feel for that period), and if a PD label goes all the way to do something on Ina Ray Hutton (of all bandleaders) it cannot be a ripoff-and-run affair. There'd be far, far better-selling targets ... During the time thereafter I picked up a few of their other artist and theme compilations (some Jazz Noire and, above all, several of their Jump Blues "the Jamaican Sound System way" series). The artist 3-CD sets featuring Maxwell Davis and King Curtis do fill gaps in the reissue world so it seems they do some decent research mindful of collectors and do not just rehash the usual stuff easily or just recently available elsewhere. The "Jamaican Sound System Classics" are not likely to have lots of material that's new to to diehard R&B collectors, but I picked them up anway as I find them very well programmed and convenient to have a number of perennial connoisseur favorites in one place, particularly as they could/can be found at very good prices. And the packaging, presentation, booklets, notes etc. are well-done too. Scene experts such as Dave Penny (the main liner note man) and Dan Kochakian were involved in the compilation and discographical work. Not the worst references ... As for their remastering, one Paul Jackson is credited in the "Jamaican" series and the Maxwell Davis set has one note proclaiming "Fantastic Voyage believes in moderation in the application of noise reduction. We hope you will agree that the quality of MD's solo on Junp Safari more than compensates for the surface noise." Whatever that tells about their approach ...

Just took the plunge and ordered a copy of The High Fidelity Art of Jim Flora (the third of the Flora books done by collator Irvin Chusid) online. I also am on the lookout for a decently priced copy of The Mischievous Art of Jim Flora (of which i became aware only very recently too) but I am a bit wary about the references of an online seller of the the most affordable one found so far. I'll keep searching ...

Yes it's him - acording to the liner notes.

Yes, it's a pity that Chronological Classics did not last longer. Although, on the other hand they did make you realize that in the end you do NOT always need to be a completist even with some of those artists that really ranked high on your favorite list and where you had been wondering about the tracks overlooked on other, earlier reissues and were sort of hoping for CC to come to the rescue. Sometimes the experience was a mixed bag ...

I guess your stance is fairly common among other forumists too, as past discussions have shown. But unfortunately those past discussions have also shown that some forumists tend to rage and rant in every way whenever PD releases on Spanish labels (for example) come up. And it is not that hard to fathom why ... They seem to take offense when PD releases are done of artists oh so dear to their hearts in those fields of jazz they prefer (hard bop and onwards) and question the legitimacy of those releases and of the way they make use of European P.D. laws whereas they are rather more tolerant when it is about "introductory" box sets on bebop and possibly even earlier styles of jazz that are not quite as much of a key focus to them and where box sets such as these enable them to cover their essentials in one (budget-priced) swoop. I call this "double standards", sorry to say ... Not least of all because, like I said, I do have my doubts that Proper in each and every case starts from scratch in their compilations and uses of source material. Another example that comes to mind in that respect is that their accordeon jazz box set has a surprising number of overlaps with a box set done by Fremeaux some 20 years ago. And as it happened this one also extensively featured 50s artists that had been graced with reissues elsewhere not that long before (Mat Mathews IIIRC) whereas I cannot find any trace of other accordeonists who to my knowledge have not been reissued (Johnny Hamlin, to name just one example) but would have expanded the coverage of such a "themed" compilation. I'd have figured a thoughtfully compiled reissue on a specific field also covered by a fellow label would proceed in the interest of the customer and try to fill the gaps left by that other (except for a sampling of total essentials, possibly) and cover their OWN ground. Not all that much here, though. So much for "curating" ...

Bruyninckx just lists Bacsik on guitar, nobody else.

The discogs link I provided you with tells it all.

Your LP is the US release of the Fontana LP discussed earlier in this thread. See here: https://www.discogs.com/Elek-Bacsik-Jazz-Guitarist-Elek-Bacsik/release/10985479

Yes, I thought about Proper too when i gave my impressions above. I have seen a few discussions here in the past where it really seemed to me like they seem to be held in high esteem by some forumists who sneer at lots of other PD labels (starting with Fresh Sound) but are all for picking up Proper box sets of those artists who they'd like to familiarize themselves with but do not want to go all out and buy the reissues piecemeal in more comprehensive fashion elsewhere, e.g. those who are primarily into hard bop (and subsequent styles) but would like to get a smattering of bebop too but don't care to dig to the same depth there. A bit of double standards but oh well ... I have a few Proper sets and while I find them OK soundwise I do have my doubts about whether they actually do their own remastering etc. I wonder if the Proper people who did the Bob Wills set did NOT take a "proper" look at the Bear Family set and in the same manner I wonder whether the Milton Brown box set done by the Texas Rose label did NOT serve as a very, very direct inspiration for the Proper box set. Also, I find the artist listings in their "themed" box sets (e.g. the "Hittin' on All Six" guitar set) just crappy. The track listing on the back of the box set and on the website does not give the name of the band leader under whose name the tune actually was issued but the name of the featured guitarist. So you often will be unable to know exactly which is which (as it is not unknown for artist to record one and the same tune in several settings) unless you are a walking discography. You'd only find the accurate details inside the booklet AFTER you have bought the (sealed) set. Not the way to do it IMO ...

When I first saw this thread I was wondering long and hard if Red Rodney was "early" enough (even from today's vantage point).

Avid Entertainment - (P) and (C) 2017 Avid Ltd. Compiler: Colin Davey, Remasteirng: Nick Dellow, plus the standard wording of "All rights of the producer and owner of the recorded works reserved" No mention of RCA.

I still feel these are two totally different kettles of fish - if only because the way you source your material means you follow a different approach. This skews the discussion.

I have no way of knowing for sure but my guess is that such a (P.D.) label did use vinyls for the transfers (how would they haved had access to master tapes?) but that they also did some relatively thoughtful remastering on it.

Ace is NOT a "public domain" label, neither is Bear Family. They DO license stuff and Ace, in particular, has ACQUIRED entire label files and archives lock stock and barrel (e.g. the Modern/RPM catalog) and has gone where no others have bothered to tread. If a discussion such as this was to evolve along halfway serious lines this distinction ought to be respected and adhered to. Just because a label is European does not mean it is "Public Domain". And "Public Domain" by European laws and standards is not intrinsically bad. As for the sound harshness and loudness issue, I have a feeling this is a problem even with totally "legitimate" reissues these days. Seems like many reissue companies are bowing too rapdily to what they perceive to be "today's" listeners' "habits" and expectancies. I seem to remember more than one discussion about some Blue Note RVG rmeasterings under that angle too. FWIW, I for one am largely satisfied with Fresh Sound (disregarding for now that they did/do have licensing deals for part of their reissues too) and their offshoots such as Blue Moon, partly because they too go where others never bothered to go (because visibly there was not enough money in those areas for them). Generally I find their sound OK, quite acceptable, whatever .... On a different aspect, I have come to be fairly dissatisfied with the "2 LPs on one CD" reissue/pairing policy of Fresh Sound because they very often pair an easily available item with a really obscure item or one that they had reissued earlier with such an obscure one that would be new to the reissue market. So those who've been around a fairly long time and bought their stuff earlier will often be licked. But I have reached the point where I do not really get too worked up about this anymore. You can't have'em all ... (To put my approach to these PD labels in perspective, when I pay what would be the "full price" it is vinyl I prefer. If I cannot get the vinyl at an affordable price (which these days is often the case, unfortunately) I am much more wary to pay top money for CDs with stuff that is just being reissued in an x-th iteration) I had no qualms about picking up a scant few items on LoneHillJazz either - including for the reason of them covering fields nobody else did (obscure Japanese reissues maybe available on the worldwide market for something like 12 minutes and 43 seconds before going OOP don't count ) As for Real Gone Jazz (the "Classic Albums" 4-CD sets, I've picked up a few of these and can live quite well with the sound too for what they are and how they are priced. I tend to see them as convenience packages and introductory starter sets (this is how I approached some Jimmy Smith and Shirley Scott sets) or gap fillers for items otherwise hard to come by, and they do serve their purpose well in that field. For example, I picked up the Tal Farlow package because though I have spent a fair bit of dough on picking up his individual albums (including some originals and some Japanese reissues) there were three in the field that just eluded me at the prices I was willing to shell out. So given the price of the 4-CD set, this package was well worth picking up even for only 3 LP's worth of ALL-new stuff. When I had a fit of stocking up on Soul Jazz 2 years ago I got myself not only a Real Gone Jazz set on Gene Ammons but also his "Prestige Collection 1960-1962" 4-CD set on a label called "Enlightenment" (his vinyls had largely disappeared from the usual outlets here for a long time). I remember I was a bit underwhelmed by the sound but I will have to do a sort of listening comparison between both (they duplicate one LP) and the very few OJC vinyl reissues I have. JSP im my opinion is a can of worms. I do not have enough of them across the ENTIRE spectrum to judge fairly, but I have several of really early cajun/hillbilly and blues sets with recordings from the 20s that, while I am very tolerant of background noise of reissued 78s really had me wondering "Did all the Paramounts really sound THAT bad across the board?", for example. I can live with it and if in doubt I prefer the noise even of scruffy originals instead of deadened doctorings that lack the high and low ends and just sound flat, but yet I am wondering if any remastering at all was done to these reissues ... The 50s R&B sets I have are OK soundwise, compared to what else is out there in various formats and labels. OTOH the Chet Atkins "Early Years" box (compiled with the assistance of Joe Bussard) sounds eerily clean and "cleaned up" to me. As for Jasmine, those I have are mostly older CDs with reissues of British jazz from the 50s and I wonder if these really all are P.D. or if some reissue licensing deal (e.g. with the successors of the Tempo label) did go into it.

You're all way too fast for me again. TTK, about your ealier question about vinyl sources of the AVID CD, honestly, I am not going to make a definite statement, just try a subjective impression. As I don't have any other versions of the "Adventures in Time" I canot really judge know what exactly they are supposed to sound like in detail, and as the "tonal colors" are all rather different from one track to another it is hard to make sound comparisons as the tunes follow each other. So I did as you suggested and took what must have been the final track on side 1 of the "New directions In Muscic" 10-incher: "Rain" (as it happens) and tried some listening comparison with my vinyl copy of "Inside Sauter-Finegan Revisited" which a reissued many tracks from that 10". My LP is very clean and plays well, but apart from the fact that here (as with many CD reissues) the overall volume of the CD is up compared to LPs and though I'd be quite happy with the LP as it is if I had never happened to buy the CD, I do find the sound of that track on the Avid CD to be brighter and clearer. Hard to describe it in terms that will satisfy the serious musicologists and sound technicians, but the instruments sound more "separate" and more distinctive (you can pick out the brushwork of the drummer more clearly as I sense it, for example), yet they still are "together". The general impression of other tracks goes into the same direction. Whatever it was the remastering engineer did (one Nick Dellow - familiar to anyone?), the results are quite palatable to me. So no complaints from me about this Avid reissue. Re - "Under Analysis", yes of course the LP exists , and IMHO your assessment nails it, TTK (even to me who may be more familiar with earlier big band versions of the standards). Compared to other (earlier) S-F LPs it is a more straightforward version of their "progressive" approach to big band orchestration and charts swinging in a more direct way. Something that even somebody not on an all-out progressive trip shold find fairly accessible (unless, of course, he is dead bent on sticking with typical late 30s "big band era" sounds) The Liebermann Concerto is on the Avid reissue too, BTW, but I have not yet listened to it closer. I'll get around to "Adventures in Time" eventually too but to me it is challenging. It runs a very, very wide gamut - from the cartoon score-ish "The Jukes Family Take a Holiday" (I can very well imagine this as the background music to an animated plot based on the JIm Flora covers of "Sons of Sauter-Finegan" and Nick Travis' "The Panic is On" ) via the dark and decidedly odd rendition of the "The Minute" poem to a background of various percussion sounds (Salvador Dalì's melting clocks set to music? or still more analogies that would be too long go into here) to the lighter-hearted uptempo "Swingcussion" that moves along a bit like what the xylophone-based Red Norvo orchestra of the 30s might have sounded like if he had just kept his early orchestra going and evolving into the 50s without moving his style towards a chamber music setting the way he did from the mid-40s onwards.

Down Beat were sort of underwhelmed. Unable to express the ideas floating in his head and painfully squealing because he was aware of what he wanted to express but couldn't ... Or so they thought ... Just out of curiosity .... Was there more than one Milcho Leviev or a succession/family of musicians by the same name? Unless my memory is failing me really, really badly, I do seem to remember that name from some Down Beats from the 50s (and/or Schwann-like record release listings), but in an orchestral MOR pop/light classics context. Could this possibly be the same one?

But proof too that they were not ABOVE playing such music.