clifford_thornton

Other than McPhee (and even then only to a degree, and he was around long before the downtown scene), none of these players really matter to me in any way other than knowing that they're there and that they play well. I'm glad they're there and I'm glad that they're doing that, but..Don Byron? Really? There's just one too may layer of "detachment" to the whole thing for me...even when it's hot, it's not the type of hot that will burn your skin off, it's the type of hot that makes you look at yo0ur buddies and say "wow, that was hot!" and then go to the bar laughing about, yeah, that was hot! Of course that's just me, and what is important to me need not be important to you, and vice-versa, I'm just saying...if the downtown scene is important in any "universal" way, then...I'm not in that universe and don't really feel any need to be. To the degree that I still care about such things, I've got other muses to follow. And definitely did when I really did care about such things. Why is McPhee mentioned among these people?!? Joe has his own thing going that dips way, way back. He was a contemporary of the Ayler brothers and began recording in 1967, and he's still going even stronger today. He wasn't even really playing in the US in the 1980s. The no wavers were Downtown geographically but had a much, much different thing going on than the improvisers you mention. Sure, some cross pollination with Kip Hanrahan and of course Rudolph Grey's free music trios with Arthur Doyle, Beaver Harris, Rashied Ali, Jim Sauter, Charles Gayle et al. (Blue Humans = proverbial round peg in a square hole no matter the genre), but it's hard for me to think of say, Mars in the same league with Naked City. I don't think deconstruction and concept were as much a part of the no wave thing as some people might like to say. Mars is closer to Albert Ayler than it is Zorn - primal, old-world shit. By the same token, Branca, Chatham, and Russell were composers first and foremost, and made some very interesting and very beautiful music. The first two still do. Arthur Russell's first LP was on Phillip Glass's imprint, Chatham Square, IIRC.

Please Hammer, don't search 'em.

PM sent.

Barnaby reissues of Candid LPs also had "follow-up" liners.

I've been collecting for years and honestly never saw it until the CD came out.

Jazzloft still showing in stock this morning - whether or not they have copies.... Thanks for the tip but ... they won't and in any case I only buy over here either in-store or occasionally online when there is guaranteed stock and short delivery times. Amazon uk list it but don't have it. I don't collect so stuff like this is only ever an impulse purchase for me. In any case I know the music well. Why don't you buy JETman's spare copy?

Oh yeah, of course! Nuovi Sentimenti!

The Levin is good. In fact all three of his LPs as a leader are excellent.

Sweet. I only know him from a couple (I think) Beehive dates in my collection. Liked what I heard.

Yeah, he definitely would fit into the time frame. What an odd dude.

I haven't been able to use my home stereo as much lately (roommate issues). It was nice to get Dogon A.D. out and play it "full throttle" tonight. It sounds great on a real system (rather than on headphones or in my car).

Right, a real freedom from/freedom for thing too - without Trane around, things were opened up hugely, yet the loss was also extremely significant because his presence and dedication was a focal point for a lot of players. Yeah, Garrison and Beaver Harris. What a fucking band. The program starts with a lengthy Garrison solo that's just out of this world. I honestly don't know if he was being hired on for "referencing" Trane or just because he was an incredible bassist who could do some really special things with grounding an otherwise not-so-easy-to-ground music. For example, he's the linchpin on the Clifford Thornton LP Freedom & Unity, recorded the day after Trane's funeral. That said, I haven't listened to Attica Blues in a while and I certainly wouldn't put it past Shepp to write some sort of "commentary" structure around a player. He thought "theatrically" about the music as well as historically, politically and immediately.

Ha - well maybe it was out of the Akira Sakata bag of theatrical poetry recitation.

Actually, the Donaueschingen performance issued on Saba with "One for the Trane" was in between those two Impulse LPs' recording dates. Shepp was touring Europe that fall with the two-trombone lineup and apparently those marathon performances were quite an experience over there, too. 1967 was the year of some of Shepp's most intense music, but I'd argue that he's always been somewhat programmatically diffuse from the get-go, and that's part of his charm.

Yeah, true. The Fontana LP with Griff seems to have the groans as loud (if not louder than) the music. I don't really mind groaning from Jarrett, Kuhn, Bud, Ingebrigt Haker Flaten or anyone else. Don't have much Kikuchi but his name has been tossed around as someone to check out from time to time. May dipp in.

The fluxus-dadaist ideal of destruction bringing the new is certainly an important philosophical construct, but from my perspective/experience with avant-garde music (or that which was termed avant-garde), very few (if any) musicians had any interest in wiping the slate clean of "tradition." Someone like Ornette or Bill Dixon is/was very engaged with tradition, respectful of it, even viewing their music as part of that tradition. Destroying what Cootie Williams or Louis Armstrong or Tab Smith did/represented was not an interest. Playing what you not only wanted to play but had to play - that's what was important. If it turned out to be viewed as "avant-garde" well, hey, that's all fine and dandy too. I was watching a DVD from German TV that my friend had with a panel of critics dissecting live performances by Klaus Doldinger and Peter Brotzmann. In no way was Brotzmann trying to "wipe away" the traditional forms - by his own statement, anyway - he and his group were doing what they felt a need to do and express themselves fully, simple as that.

Yeah, it's definitely hard to imagine the Brotz/Miller/Moholo trio happening at any time other than it did. Those records are intense, but their vibe is definitely not of "breaking free" in the same way - "subsisting," slogging, workmanlike as you put it. Also, Miller's amplified bass is so springy, taut and aggressive-sounding that it really contributes to an unhinged rhythm-section vibe. You mention a lot of stuff I really like, but I have a hard time imagining how it would fit in a book together without the book melting and/or exploding!

Yeah, same concern. I would like to hear it...

Nicely put Jim. Indeed. I had the opportunity of seeing him once with Grachan, Hutcherson, Rene and I forget who was playing bass and drums. It was a nice gig. Jackie was cool as they come, too - intense, but very cool and a neat guy to interview. Great! Must have been a great evening! I also had the opportunity to see Jackie with Bobby Hutcherson, Herbie Lewis and Billy Higgins, one of the greatest experiences I ever had. Imagine, a combination of the musicians who played on "Let Freedom Ring" and "One Step Beyond".... The music wasn't, obviously, as fiery as it must have been long ago, but to see them perform "Love and Hate" was stunning. Jackie said one of his major influences was the pianist Valdo Williams (who recorded very little).

Nicely put Jim. Indeed. I had the opportunity of seeing him once with Grachan, Hutcherson, Rene and I forget who was playing bass and drums. It was a nice gig. Jackie was cool as they come, too - intense, but very cool and a neat guy to interview.

Oh Jesus. Sounds like the Wire these days...

The Softs were great. There was a lot of lyricism as well as brutality - I think the very early trio with Ayers was pretty f'in intense and messy. The live recordings that Cuneiform released bear that out, and their first LP is pretty much a razor's edge record if there ever was one.

and that roguish/humorous aspect of PB's work (esp. with Van Hove/Bennink) was replaced with a much more spiritual music in the 90s and 00s, ironically. I have recordings of PB dating to '66 with Carla Bley and Steve Lacy, so he was definitely "there" in the latter half of the decade and he was certainly important in unseating some of the previously-held aesthetic convictions in German jazz, ones which people like Schoof and v. Schlippenbach held even into their early avant-garde works. But, I'd still maintain that as a musician-composer, his art came into its own at the turn of another time cycle. It'd be pretty easy to make the case, too, that 1967-1972 is its own period not "of the '60s" or "of the '70s" either, closely tied with Vietnam.

Not to be the burr in the carpet, but I guess I am a little uncertain of whether to include musicians/artists in such a list whose actual mature period/floruit happened a little later. Like Brotzmann is a good example - he began recording in 1966, but really the important/mature work didn't start coming together until the early 1970s. I have trouble calling someone like that a "60s musician." I won't get too deep into my own opinion that his work now is perhaps more interesting/compelling than the earlier stuff, even though his FMPs are pretty indispensable in their own right. Breuker was in the shit in the 60s, too, but he's another one for whom the following decade seems more... "his," despite the fact that I like his records from 1966-1968. Are musicians who are taking steps toward a certain "thing" to be included, when the "thing" really came into being later? I guess that's why they call it the avant-garde, but artistic maturity/significance is certainly something to consider here. I know it's also a challenge to separate "good records" from an individual's importance in the environment and its history, and lord knows how canonizing can really fuck things up. Sometimes I can go either way on whether someone should be a chapter, a paragraph, or a footnote. Just my .02.

Again, those are folks I'd really put more into the 1970s time period, even if early work appeared at the close of the '60s. I forgot to mention Albert Mangelsdorff and the Kuhn brothers earlier. I was trying to keep my list short, however.