Anthony Braxton

[WarpedOrb]

Medjuck, what's the number of your Braxton set? I heard these are selling well so I'm curious. Thanks. I hope your's isn't the penultimate copy. Sorry, that wasn't funny.

Edited October 24, 2009 by DemonDuckOfDoom

[Guest Bill Barton]

a penultimatum?

[B. Clugston]

Leo is releasing a Braxton duet with Joelle Leandre from 2007.

http://www.leorecords.com/?m=select&id=CD_LR_548/549

[GregK]

Are these recommended?

Quartet (Moscow) 2008

Eight Compositions (Music and Arts, duets with a bassist whose name I forget)

Edited November 2, 2009 by GregK

[jlhoots]

I only have the Moscow (2008) CD which is very good.

[B. Clugston]

Are these recommended?

Quartet (Moscow) 2008

Eight Compositions (Music and Arts, duets with a bassist whose name I forget)

Quarter (Moscow) 2008 - Yes!

Is Eight Compositions with Peter Niklas Wilson? Haven't heard that one.

[GregK]

Are these recommended?

Quartet (Moscow) 2008

Eight Compositions (Music and Arts, duets with a bassist whose name I forget)

Quarter (Moscow) 2008 - Yes!

Is Eight Compositions with Peter Niklas Wilson? Haven't heard that one.

Yes, that's the one. Alright, that's two recommendations for Moscow, so, my Borders gift card will go to that!

[colinmce]

Not sure if this has been posted in this thread or not (I think not) but here's an interesting cover for 3 Compositions. Doesn't even look like Braxton! Maybe Chuck can shed some light:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTHONY-BRAXTON-3-COMPOSITIONS-OF-orig-US-LP-delmark_W0QQitemZ260571868038QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Records?hash=item3cab4b2b86#ht_746wt_1163

[Chuck Nessa]

That's the original cover with a photo by Terry Martin. I've been telling Delmark I want to remaster the tapes and have them reissue it with that cover.

[AndrewHill]

That's the original cover with a photo by Terry Martin. I've been telling Delmark I want to remaster the tapes and have them reissue it with that cover.

That would be AWESOME. Love the original lp cover.

[Peter Johnson]

That would be extraordinary. Who can we call to "encourage" them to allow you to do this?

That's the original cover with a photo by Terry Martin. I've been telling Delmark I want to remaster the tapes and have them reissue it with that cover.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'll be in the Delmark studio working on some of my stuff next week. I'll suggest it again.

[David Ayers]

Well, I just read right through this thread and came away with a few ideas, more than I can really get down.

First, I'm reminded that no-one has yet developed a lucid way of talking about AB's work. I include in that AB himself as well as those writers who have written books (exception for PNW's book which I haven't read). AB's vocabulary is bizarrely inflated, and too many writers simply replicate it. Really the description of the various musical processes he uses need not be that complicated, and I'd add that sensible aesthetic appraisal of the work is almost completely absent in anything I've ever read about Braxton.

Second, the whole genius thing is wide of the mark, more like the only person to have made any sustained attempt to develop new forms for improvisation after the 1960s. The 'genius' image, as Radano shows, was more than anything the product of the Arista campaign, with AB hamming it up with his pipe and being photographed studying Stockhausen scores - which reminds me that those touting his 'genius' and making the comparison with Stockhausen which AB himself constantly invites mainly don't know Stockhausen and would be equally hard-pressed to explain his genius. Really the opera was the gauge of this. An effective composer would have gained a commission: AB I think just spent his Guggenheim on it. That removes all the checks and balances and amounts to vanity publishing; and no-one is interested in it, a huge sign of weakness.

Third, of course the work is interesting and the main measure of that is that you can see that whatever AB has tried *had* to be done. So regardless of the results, things had to be tried. What that means is that some of the works and performances might be failures.

Fourth, some of the emphasis in the discussion has tended to be on certain recordings, and we have tended to say the oeuvre is hard to grasp as there is so much. I'd say there are recordings or aspects of AB's work we haven't mentioned enough here, and also that it is quite easy to get an effective overview of his work by sampling each aspect of his output while considering period. So the format of work breaks down easily: solo, duet, small group, large group, orchestra. The periods are early, Chicago influenced, developing to middle, more composition based, adding in a strand from the mid-70s on standards, finally the GTM phase. Within this, the early work is a little harsh and more historical than really vital, as can be said of most of the early Chicago work. So really one of these early disks such as Three Compositions is enough to get going on that. As far as solo playing goes, AB does get better at that, and maybe a mid period one such as the 12 Weslayan is the place to start. For quartet playing, something by the classic quartet is needed - maybe Coventry, or Willisau or Santa Cruz depending on availability. For larger ensemble, I'd say Koln or the famous RCA/Bluebird disk (now locked in the Mosaic). The orchestral pieces are few and have few supporters so can be skipped, I'd say - the Mosaic box is sadly burdened by a rare but unappealing 2CD epic. Standards work can be sampled on the Charlie Parker disk. GTM is a bit boring, so the best thing is to pick up a cheap sample and not a long-winded box set. For anyone who likes downloads, most of this is best and cheaply done via the Leo Records site, making different selections but sampling most aspects of AB's work. Those who prefer CD will get many aspects cheaply on the Black Saint box when it appears. Collectors really *should* be picking up the Hats as and when they become available. The Mosaic box would present better value without the two orchestra disks and you'll find other stuff there you don't care for, so not a priority probably, though there's stuff there you will want to hear eventually. Finally a word for George Lewis who AB used to say was his best collaborator - I think because he just plays - both duet concerts with Lewis are a treat and you should try to hear at least something with Lewis - maybe Basel.

Um, that was it.

Oh, best ever Braxton appearance? Conference of the Birds.

And why didn't I mention Circle? They were terrible.

[Chuck Nessa]

Lots of attitude in that post but I don't have the energy for this debate. I don't disagree with everything David says but.....

[Guest Bill Barton]

...the whole genius thing is wide of the mark, more like the only person to have made any sustained attempt to develop new forms for improvisation after the 1960s. The 'genius' image, as Radano shows, was more than anything the product of the Arista campaign, with AB hamming it up with his pipe and being photographed studying Stockhausen scores - which reminds me that those touting his 'genius' and making the comparison with Stockhausen which AB himself constantly invites mainly don't know Stockhausen and would be equally hard-pressed to explain his genius. Really the opera was the gauge of this. An effective composer would have gained a commission: AB I think just spent his Guggenheim on it. That removes all the checks and balances and amounts to vanity publishing; and no-one is interested in it, a huge sign of weakness...

I have a feeling that the musicians involved in the Trillium E project might have some issues with this statement.

[JSngry]

Also not sure that "genius" & "failed attempts" are mutually exclusive qualities.

Also not sure that "genius" really exists as a noun...

Am sure that although I've got some Braxton work that I've played once and filed away, he engenders more love than many whose works I listen to more often. Love may not be all you need, but it's a far sight better to have it than not.

In a results-driven society, what is there to be said for the impetus & inspiration behind the effort that creates the results?

Not enough, I think!

[clifford_thornton]

...the whole genius thing is wide of the mark, more like the only person to have made any sustained attempt to develop new forms for improvisation after the 1960s. The 'genius' image, as Radano shows, was more than anything the product of the Arista campaign, with AB hamming it up with his pipe and being photographed studying Stockhausen scores - which reminds me that those touting his 'genius' and making the comparison with Stockhausen which AB himself constantly invites mainly don't know Stockhausen and would be equally hard-pressed to explain his genius. Really the opera was the gauge of this. An effective composer would have gained a commission: AB I think just spent his Guggenheim on it. That removes all the checks and balances and amounts to vanity publishing; and no-one is interested in it, a huge sign of weakness...

I have a feeling that the musicians involved in the Trillium E project might have some issues with this statement.

Ah, cool, glad it's in the recording stages!

[David Ayers]

Just while I am on the topic, while I own or have at least heard the great majority of AB's recordings, I passed over the Clean Feed set with Joe Morris, mainly because I never warmed to Morris's playing and had doubts about the project of recording and publishing what I take to be four concerts of let's-see-how-we-get-on improv. But I have an itch to hear it and wonder if anyone can comment on it before I order it up?

PS Jim, I'm not knocking AB - at all - just asking questions about the optic he gets placed in. Without spelling it out I was querying the concept of genius (C18th construct taken up by Romantics) and saying we should talk more about his approaches, which are not as hard to discern as the vocabulary he himself uses suggests. Knowing what he aspires to - recently, Wagner and Shostakovich - is a reminder of how and why he differs from such figures, and a reminder to us to think about what music amounts to as a public activity. Next he'll start mentioning Boulez, who like Wagner and Shostakovich harnessed the resources he needed to get things done and project his agenda before a large and live public (and beyond the bracketted world of record collectors).

Edited March 30, 2010 by David Ayers

[Niko]

fwiw here's braxton being called a genius from 1974 (so before the Arista campaign?)

[clifford_thornton]

Just while I am on the topic, while I own or have at least heard the great majority of AB's recordings, I passed over the Clean Feed set with Joe Morris, mainly because I never warmed to Morris's playing and had doubts about the project of recording and publishing what I take to be four concerts of let's-see-how-we-get-on improv. But I have an itch to hear it and wonder if anyone can comment on it before I order it up?

It's really great. Not live, but studio material, and they work very well together.

I'll be publishing a Braxton interview soon that hopefully will help clarify some of his ideas, or justify why they might not seem so clear on first, second, or third pass.

[7/4]

I'll be publishing a Braxton interview soon that hopefully will help clarify some of his ideas, or justify why they might not seem so clear on first, second, or third pass.

I'm looking forward to it!

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, I interviewed him in the fall but my winter/spring has been a time-suck and brain-suck, so consequently it's just getting shored up now. It should be on AAJ by late April, perhaps in more than one part (fucker is 60 pp. transcribed).

I realized that, once you sort of just let yourself into Braxton's thought-world and vocabulary, a significant part of it does make sense. And if something is unclear the first time, he is glad to try his best to clarify it. I agree that not everybody has that option, but what people do have is access to the recordings and liner notes, which taken bit by bit, over and over, gradually unfurl into a dynamic system with a few choice elements that meant to spur creative thought and activity.

Braxton said to me, and of his critics and their responses, that he basically "just want people to have fun and [he isn't] out to harm anybody." Sure, those four+ CD boxed sets can be daunting, but once you pop a disc into the player and let it go, the music is very joyous, fun, sometimes quite funny, and often very pretty. I understand why something of magnitude/breadth can be hard to take in over a few sittings, but Braxton doesn't expect his music to be something short-term and meant for quick consumption. It takes time to appreciate it (especially his post-1970s music), but ultimately, it's there to be enjoyed. I know that sounds simple, but it really does help to just listen and not get too wrapped up in nomenclature and theory. That stuff is helpful at a certain level, but not at all levels of the music. It's there if you want it.

[David Ayers]

Just while I am on the topic, while I own or have at least heard the great majority of AB's recordings, I passed over the Clean Feed set with Joe Morris, mainly because I never warmed to Morris's playing and had doubts about the project of recording and publishing what I take to be four concerts of let's-see-how-we-get-on improv. But I have an itch to hear it and wonder if anyone can comment on it before I order it up?

It's really great. Not live, but studio material, and they work very well together.

I'll be publishing a Braxton interview soon that hopefully will help clarify some of his ideas, or justify why they might not seem so clear on first, second, or third pass.

Good to know on both counts. I really think AB's work is not hard to understand, and his prose is quite penetrable, but it's clumsy and a conventional vocabulary exists to express most, maybe all, of what he has to say. Of course the *reasons* he arrived at the discourse he did are those of social situation.

[clifford_thornton]

FWIW, 4 Comps (GTM) 2006 on Important is wonderful. Not too much obvious repetition, and Aaron Siegel is a fine percussionist.

[Guest Bill Barton]

...the whole genius thing is wide of the mark, more like the only person to have made any sustained attempt to develop new forms for improvisation after the 1960s. The 'genius' image, as Radano shows, was more than anything the product of the Arista campaign, with AB hamming it up with his pipe and being photographed studying Stockhausen scores - which reminds me that those touting his 'genius' and making the comparison with Stockhausen which AB himself constantly invites mainly don't know Stockhausen and would be equally hard-pressed to explain his genius. Really the opera was the gauge of this. An effective composer would have gained a commission: AB I think just spent his Guggenheim on it. That removes all the checks and balances and amounts to vanity publishing; and no-one is interested in it, a huge sign of weakness...

I have a feeling that the musicians involved in the Trillium E project might have some issues with this statement.

Ah, cool, glad it's in the recording stages!

Kyoko Kitamura posted a whole bunch of photos from the sessions on her Facebook profile. Really great shots! As I understand it, the sessions are now complete. Quite the line-up of musicians...