Playing Monk Tunes

[MartyJazz]

Which exactly was Monk's "classic quartet"? - I got Monk, I got Rouse.

Mike

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Assuming he's referring to the Columbia incarnations, I'd vote for Butch Warren and especially Frankie Dunlop (over Riley). Any other bassists on those sides besides John Ore and Larry Gales?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Not on the records, but Monk used Bob Cranshaw, Don Moore, Steve Swallow, Herbie Lewis, Victor Gaskin, Art Davis, Wilbur Ware, Nate Hygelund as bassists and Roy Haynes, Buster Smith, Ed Blackwell, Billy Kaye, Billy Higgins, Paris Wright, Alan Dawson, Al Dreares as drummers in the 1960-1970 period when Rouse was in the quartet.

My point was that I don't see ONE classic quartet, even for the groups that made the records - I could see someone making the case for Ore/Dunlop or Warren/Dunlop, or Gales/Riley - I'll agree that my preference is for Dunlop. Hadn't thought too much about which bassist, but I'll take your choice under consideration.

Mike

[Dan Gould]

I'd say "Classic Quartet" is simply referring to Rouse, without great consideration of drums/bass. The reference really is to Rouse and his long tenure, presence on the "classic" albums, and his great affinity for Monk's musical world.

But Dunlop does get the nod here, too.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The problem is I don't think one can ignore (or equivocate) bass and drums when discussing how hard the group swings. Kind of important to the equation.

Mike

[AllenLowe]

I don't want to start a war here, but I cannot stand Rouse's playing - it is thin, shallow, and boring to my ears - I always prefer Monk in a trio, where he can completey shape the performance - to me Rouse is a classic journeyman performer, competent but uninspired -

[Dan Gould]

There are more than a few people here who agree with you but I am surely not one of them. I'd also wager that Monk wouldn't agree either.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I would reserve the "journeyman" tag for the hundreds of forgettable tenor players who go through the ghost bands. Those guys are competent, but Rouse was no way on that level. Journeyman players, to me, are forgettable and interchangeable. Rouse had his own personality, sound, and style.

I understand where you're coming from, though. His tone and his intonation aren't the ideals. I think he works quite well with Monk and with Sphere.

For me, he's the tenor sound of Monk, perhaps because he's not Coltrane, Rollins, Griffin, et al. Those guys' work with Monk was a tiny bit of their output, but for Rouse, Monk is a huge percentage.

Or is "classic journeyman player" a different level?

Mike

[Soul Stream]

To me, when I think of Monk...I think of Monk, Rouse, Gales and Riley...that was the hardest swinging group in the history of the world in my mind. "Live At The It Club" is one good reason why I put this group above all others. I'm sure not shared by all, and it's not to say there is such a thing as the definitive group...this is just in my mind.

[AllenLowe]

well, Mike, I know what you mean - but - and I feel like I'm on Jerry Springer, as I've never admitted this in public before - I cannot listen to Rouse. I find him to be the dullest horn player in the universe.

There...I've said it - now someone hit me with a chair -

[bertrand]

My two cents:

1. I vote for Butch Warren, if we're voting.

2. Rouse sounds good on some Monk records, not so good on others. I can't say he's my least favorite, but he's not in my pantheon either. Depending on my mood, his tonality can be a bit jarring.

Bertrand.

[Guy Berger]

Interesting replies; glad this has sparked some discussion 

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Another non-musician here. Monk reminds me a lot of Ornette Coleman -- both major jazz composers with very personal/identifiable compositions that require more than "playing what's on paper" for a satisfying performance.

Guy

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Come on, THE *dullest* in the UNIVERSE? As in no one else beneath? Or do you mean, the dullest of all the guys who recorded with Monk or something like that: dullest "big name" tenor player. Because I could easily see Rouse making a top 500 tenors list (maybe even a top 100). And down around 4,539,894 would start the folks who are not tenor players, but tenor owners.

BTW, I'm sure we can get someone to oblige about the chair.

Mike

[Robert J]

[7/4]

well, Mike, I know what you mean - but - and I feel like I'm on Jerry Springer, as I've never admitted this in public before -  I cannot listen to Rouse. I find him to be the dullest horn player in the universe.

There...I've said it - now someone hit me with a chair -

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Rouse never did too much for me 2.

[jazzbo]

Me, I love Rouse.

[brownie]

Me 2

[couw]

moi trois -_-

[RDK]

Another Rouse fan. Maybe we should do a poll...

[Rosco]

I always thought Rouse was okay...

But as I implied earlier, once I started to dig into Monk's repertoire I appreciated Rouse's playing from a whole different perspective.

He may not make sparks fly, but make no mistake, the guy's a master!

[mikeweil]

I love Rouse, too, but I can see what those who criticize him want to say: There is a certain sameness in his playing. He's original, I could probably tell him from any other tenor player, but I couldn't tell any differences between his solos on different tracks ....

[mikeweil]

Monk reminds me a lot of Ornette Coleman -- both major jazz composers with very personal/identifiable compositions that require more than "playing what's on paper" for a satisfying performance.

Interesting - I was thinking of Ornette, too, as another example of a composer where running the changes won't do very much.

You have to understand the melody as an expression of a distinctive musical character - each of their tunes has a specific mood and color, timbre, feel, not just melody or rhythm. It's an entity on its own, a musical individual, so to speak, and has to be treated on its own individual terms.

[mikeweil]

..... and that is exactly what made Steve Lacy such a master at interpreting Monk: he recognized the specifics of each Monk tune.

[Chalupa]

Monk's rhythms are the most inimitable thing about him.

When I first started listening to the man, in high school, it was the rhythms that really turned my head around. (Though, of course, everything about Monk as a composer/performer was/is powerfully integral: melody, rhythm, phrasing, etc.)

Monk is the master of rhythmic suspense. He sub-divides the rhythm far beyond the ken of notation of any kind.

I'm an untrained musician (singer, songwriter, and rhythm guitarist for several unsung "popadelic funk'n'roll" bands) and Monk was a key influence on my phrasing and inflection of silences, much to the chagrin several band-mates.

I've essayed a few Monk compositions on my lonesome, and I can't say I've ever fallen down the shaft -- perhaps because my approach is structural and melodic, rather than chord-based.

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Have you heard the cd "Rumba Para Monk" by Jerry Gonzales & the Fort Apache Band??? Gonzales arranged a bunch of Monk tunes w/ a Latin rhythm/percussion sound. It works more often than not. "Bye-Ya" is a stand out for me.

[Kalo]

Have you heard the cd "Rumba Para Monk" by Jerry Gonzales & the Fort Apache Band??? Gonzales arranged a bunch of Monk tunes w/ a Latin rhythm/percussion sound. It works more often than not. "Bye-Ya" is a stand out for me.

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I've been wanting to check that one out for a long time. Unlike some, I actually dig hearing Monk's tunes played by others, as long as they really try to burrow into them, rather than just skim the surface.

[Kalo]

I don't want to start a war here, but I cannot stand Rouse's playing - it is thin, shallow, and boring to my ears - I always prefer Monk in a trio, where he can completey shape the performance - to me Rouse is a classic journeyman performer, competent but uninspired -

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Ouch!

I would reserve the "journeyman" tag for the hundreds of forgettable tenor players who go through the ghost bands. Those guys are competent, but Rouse was no way on that level. Journeyman players, to me, are forgettable and interchangeable. Rouse had his own personality, sound, and style.

I understand where you're coming from, though. His tone and his intonation aren't the ideals. I think he works quite well with Monk and with Sphere.

For me, he's the tenor sound of Monk, perhaps because he's not Coltrane, Rollins, Griffin, et al. Those guys' work with Monk was a tiny bit of their output, but for Rouse, Monk is a huge percentage.

Or is "classic journeyman player" a different level?

Mike

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I'm a Rouse fan. I think he's miles ahead of most players for the simple reason that he has such an identifiable sound: the man had a voice. He sure fits well with Monk, and the whole tenor of this thread (pun intended) is how truly difficult it is/was to hang with the man.

I wonder what Lacy thought of Rouse. Anyone know?

Rouse's Soul Mates(Uptown Records) is one of my top ten jazz discs of the past 20 years.