Kenny Dorham "private" dates

[clifford_thornton]

that's too bad about Claude!

[andybleaden]

Great recording - listened to it last night - however please note I have a faulty last 2 tracks which skip and seem poorly printed to CD - not the live recording. I note others have had similar issues - so be warned. However the other tracks were beeeeautiful to listen to so still worth it. Lets see if my replacement is any better.

[clifford_thornton]

Bummer. 

I thought the Bernie Drayton interview was fascinating; the other texts mostly spotlighted Dorham, with little verbiage spent on the other band members (except maybe Red). Not surprising, but still...

[bertrand]

The interview with Drayton seems to suggest that KD and Denis Charles were tight at the time, which I assume means they played together on occasion. Do we know of one instance where they played together?

[JSngry]

7 minutes ago, bertrand said:

The interview with Drayton seems to suggest that KD and Denis Charles were tight at the time, which I assume means they played together on occasion. Do we know of one instance where they played together?

That interview was "taken from", so God only knows if that was the name he actually said.

Believe David Weiss - the drummer is Huss Charles.

[bertrand]

I totally believe it is Huss on this recording. I am just wondering if it is true that KD and Denis ever played together on other occasions. It just seems very odd that Drayton would make a point of connecting KD to Denis. 

[JSngry]

If he actually did...

[bertrand]

You are suggesting the interview might not be an accurate transcription of what Drayton actually said? Would this have been out of sloppiness or a disingenuous attempt to further muddy the waters and advance the faulty Denis Charles narrative? I can totally see the latter, except I do not see the actual point of it. Claiming it is Denis rather than Huss will not move an extra 500 copies. Could it be that the error was discovered after the Denis estate had already been paid? Do estates get one flat fee in this situation and then it is over?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

3 hours ago, bertrand said:

You are suggesting the interview might not be an accurate transcription of what Drayton actually said? Would this have been out of sloppiness or a disingenuous attempt to further muddy the waters and advance the faulty Denis Charles narrative? I can totally see the latter, except I do not see the actual point of it. Claiming it is Denis rather than Huss will not move an extra 500 copies. Could it be that the error was discovered after the Denis estate had already been paid? Do estates get one flat fee in this situation and then it is over?

Someone else with industry experience can correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought royalties only went to the leader. If every sideman has to be part of the deal, how do they ever release any big band records?

[bertrand]

Everybody, leader and sideman, or their estates, has to get paid. Zev has boasted in the past that he makes sure of this. He even thanked everyone in the booklet and dedicated the releases to those who were deceased. Everyone has to OK the release as well. He is less rigorous about that now. Neither Charles brother gets a dedication here.

Good point about big bands. Uptown did not get approval for the Duke Pearson big band Left Bank date from most of the band members or estates. Jerry Dodgion did help out, but Lew Tabackin was complaining on Facebook about it. In fact, he did not know it was being recorded. The Left Bank guys told me they always got permission from the leaders but I am skeptical. In fact, Uptown needed clearance from Blue Note since Duke was signed to them. I am sorry I hooked them up, other Left Bank tapes (more Pearson, Grant Green) are now AWL.

 

Edited 19 hours ago by bertrand

[david weiss]

9 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

Someone else with industry experience can correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought royalties only went to the leader. If every sideman has to be part of the deal, how do they ever release any big band records?

There are different situations but if there are royalties involved with the deal, the leader gets the royalties. 

With live tapes, no one was ever paid so you would have to pay all the band members or their estates to legitimately release the live tape. So technically, Huss Charles or his family is entitled to compensation for his appearance on this record. I'm told that when Denis died, his obituary in the NY Times stated he was survived by his two brothers. That was a while ago though of course....

[clifford_thornton]

Denis has a child or children, correct?

I am positive the interviews in the booklet are heavily edited/amended, so who knows what Drayton said or recalled.

Elsewhere it was stated that both Charles brothers played with KD.

Edited 9 hours ago by clifford_thornton

[bertrand]

Wait - you are saying that Huss is mentioned the booklet? What page? I missed that. If so, then there goes my theory that Zev said it was Denis because he did not know who Huss was and perhaps assumed incorrectly that the beginning announcement (not included on the CD) was garbled somehow.

Denis may well have played with KD a few times, but where and when? Not on this date in any case.

 

 

[clifford_thornton]

Sorry, not in the booklet -- thought it was put forth earlier in this thread that both played with Dorham, but now I can't find it.

Zev don’t know Huss, or Jack…

Edited 8 hours ago by clifford_thornton

[bertrand]

This was probably suggested three pages ago, but is it possible that it said Denis on the tape box and Huss was a last-minute sub? I agree that Zev certainly had no idea who Huss was. Neither did I before you clued us in, but I don't claim to be a Jazz Detective nor do I make a living in this field.

[clifford_thornton]

could be. But hopefully they listened to the announcement where "Denis" (or Dennis, as he was known then) was absolutely not said! I suppose we're going in circles here, but the error is just perplexing and could have been fixed without a ton of extra legwork. Someone like William Parker, who is alive and worked with Denis regularly, could have easily identified Huss/Frank as the mysterious Charles drummer.

[bertrand]

I wonder if William Parker will hear this recording...