The D I V O R C E Thread

[Free For All]

....somehow ironically, brought to you by the same person who started "The Health Thread"......

OK, I've been delaying this for 3 months. I haven't been sure of how to even approach this topic, so bear with me. My life has recently taken a nasty and unexpected turn- my marriage came to a sudden and totally unexpected end in May. Those of you who have read my previous posts know how much I loved my wife. I'm not going to write the exhaustingly long post that it would take to go through all my own shit, but if this thread elicits any interest I might be able to unload as we go. And thank you in advance....

I've been aware of those who have been recently going through similar dues, like Ed Swinnich, for example.

Ed, I've been reading your posts and thinking "Poor guy, I'm glad that my marriage is solid". Then my situation changed very suddenly and without the opportunity for negotiation. Almost overnight she seemed to have changed her mind about me, and although we immediately (at my request) began working with a therapist, it became obvious that there was no possibility of reconciliation. And that was such a shock to me! Let me add that there was no past or present abuse or infidelity by either party, so that was not an issue.....

I'm not saying that it was anyone's fault, but it wasn't a mutual decision.

Anyway, I'm looking to find a new job and relocate, because I can't really make a living in Kansas City on my own. I moved to KC because of my wife's job, there really isn't enough work here for me to stay. That's a whole 'nuther can o' worms for now. So if anyone has a suggestion, I'm open.............

This is the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my life, I can't imagine what those of you who have children must be feeling!

So the premise of this thread is for people to share any bitterness, insights, whatever. I'm not feelin' the love right now, I could use something to build on. Or go off and be dark, whatever you need to do!

OK, there's a lot more to talk about, but I'm going to stop for now.

Thank you all for indulging me, much more to come.............

..and Ed: All the best to you! I can actually say I kind of know what you're feeling. Even though we didn't have kids.

[Jim Alfredson]

Paul, I'm really sorry to hear this. I can't really add anything, but there are lots of teaching opportunities in Michigan and you could jam with us anytime!

[Noj]

As a person who has never been in love, the type of pain you are feeling actually frightens me a little. However, without risking, I have gained nothing. You have had the courage to take that risk. That says a great deal about your character, Paul. I have no doubt that you can and will use that courage to face this monumental turning point in your life.

You're a cool dude and you have my support, friend.

[Free For All]

Thank you for your support Jim and Jon. You guys are the best!

I didn't see this coming and it has knocked me on my ass, but only for the short term. I look forward to righting myself and moving to the next level, whatever it may be............

[Spontooneous]

I'll just repeat the best thing somebody told me after my divorce:

Run, don't walk, into your new life.

(Even if it means I don't get to hear your septet.)

[DukeCity]

Paul, you and I have talked a little about this already, but I'll add that I feel for you, man! I know that things will work out for you, even if there are times when it doesn't feel like that's ever going to happen.

I also know what it's like to get kind of blindsided. I got hit a few years ago when my (ex)wife finally decided that our marriage was cutting into her time with her boyfriend! Pretty dark times followed, but after weathering the storm, things did indeed get better.

So hang in there, and know that there are a lot of folks on this board, and elsewhere, who are here for you and happy to talk about it any time.

[Free For All]

Thanks Joe, and thanks, Glenn.

Good to have friends.

And just for clarification, I'm not looking for this to be a "sympathy" thread, more of a "what's your story" thread.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

dont worry free for all we'll help u through this man- u are a longtime jazz-soul-brother here and we''re on your side--to hell with her all u need is us organissimoians. if it was truly sudden, then she either met someone else or has been watching the oprah too much and shes moving on to 'find herself', which can go down two roads: 1) she will open a small arts and crafts botique or 2) i dont want to tell you about #2, you dont want to hear about #2

[sidewinder]

Sorry to hear this and good luck with things. Suspect that it's like a lot of these things - hell at the time but after a few years a good perspective takes hold. Possibly a change for the best? (silver linings etc.)

With all these things I find it best to set up a good 'action plan' and then implement it. Makes you feel better if nothing else !

[king ubu]

Paul, I'm very sorry to hear this. I don't mingle with these personal threads that often, but I still read some of them, and I can remember how lovingly and happily you spoke about your wife and your being together. I can't say I've been through it, but still, I really hope you get back on your feet despite all of it. Time doesn't heal wounds, I think, but it certainly helps incorporating trouble and bad parts of ones life into ones own "history" and personality.

On a little cheering up side: I got your CD ("Gallery", that is) from CDbaby last week and enjoyed it a lot! Your trombone artistry is great, and some of the sidemen turn in great solos as well! A very measured and balanced album, good arrangements, too! If you'd done a bit more shameless self-promotion, I'd have heard this one years ago, so please next time cry out loud!

[brownie]

Lots of sympathy from here.

Hate to see this type of situations come up, especially to good people. Hope there will be no unwarranted bitterness from both sides.

Cannot offer much in terms of advice except to be strong and move on.

[connoisseur series500]

I don't have much more to add, Paul, since I've never been through it. As mentioned to you in the past, however, it seems like most marriages hang by a thread. What seems good today can change if one, say, loses a job or something.

You and I have discussed this a little already. Don't blame yourself. It's not necessarily YOU. It's her loss. She has elected to go her way. Nothing we can do about it. All of us here know what a good guy you are and how amenable and considerate you are to others. She won't get that anywhere else...

[dave9199]

I am going through a divorce also. My wife & I have a good relationship, the problem was she wanted a kid and I flip-flopped for 6-8 years. The only thing she could count on was that I would change my mind. I'm from a divorced home (I was 4 when it happened) and though it was the best for my parents, it colored my view on kids and I realized I've never thought about my life and saw kids at any time. My wife started to say, on occasion, that she was glad we didn't have kids at the moment (this is about 1-2 years ago) and I had never heard her say that before. What I think was happening was the same thing I was trying to do: cram a square peg in a round hole (absolutely no pun intended there, but it is funny). I think she was trying to make herself believe she might be o.k. with not having one and staying with me, whereas I was trying to believe I would be happy having one.

About that time I thought: If we aren't going to have a kid, I'd like to get a vasectomy because if I don't have one with her, I'm not going to ever want to have one. Around November last year, I decided I did want to get a vasectomy. After talking about it, and she knows how & why I feel the way I do about kids, she said that if I wanted to do, then do it, BUT she didn't know how she was going to react to it. I understood, but didn't really know what would happen. I felt it was right for me, but wasn't sure it was right for us. I had it done in May and the marriage collasped within a month (Our 10th anniversary of being a couple was a week away at this point and we had passed our 8th as married). We talked about it a lot and in early June I asked if she felt that divorce might be the only option (this was the first time the word came up) and she said yes. I never wanted to get divorced and neither did she, but she was hurt & disappointed that I couldn't get past an emotional hurdle for her. I've done it before, but this one we didn't see eye to eye on. After a sad weekend she said she wasn't bitter or angry with me. She understands that my decision has nothing to do with her, just like her decision to have kids had nothing to do with me. It's a personal choice and we had to respect each others choice. I've felt guilty for years that if I didn't want one, I'm taking away a HUGE chunk of life from her. I never felt that was fair to her. This way, she now has the oppertunity to meet someone else who wants to have kids. She's fully aware that she might not find anyone and never have them, but we both feel it's only fair for her to have that chance.

Here's the kicker: we're living together until Spetember. We went to Sedona, AZ in April and decided to move there. We started socking away money. All this happened and she is still going and I, still in moving mode decided to move to Durham, NC where my brother & his wife are (no kids there either). My wife & I are on good terms, still friends, but it gets awkward, frustrating at times on both sides, but we talk about things as they come up (actually, I need to talk about things before we split, she told me she wants to deal with it afterwards and by herself; another point of view we don't agree on, but it doesn't matter at this point). Actally this move is keeping my mind active. If I didn't have this plan, I would be a mess. We don't have any property or a house and we paid for the divorce forms so we'll just split the savings money & go our own ways. I've said to my father: I don't know why I was so fearful of getting divorced, mine's going great. I wish everybody's could be this way.

The worst part is that my best friend pulled away and I had to adjust to that. I will miss her more than I've ever missed anyone, and yet, I'm still looking forward to meeting new people, falling in love & getting married again at some point in my life.

[Joe G]

My situation was totally different from yours, Paul; with my wife's illness, decline, and eventual death (April 2005), our relationship became more caretaker/patient and even parent/child than husband and wife. It was a very difficult situation, with her incredible suffering and poor quality of life, and me just kind of hanging in there somehow. I had many dark days and often wished I was removed from the whole scenario. But, something kept me there until the last breath (literally), and from where I sit now, I have to say that I wouldn't trade what I went through for what I have gained. There were moments of deep beauty and genuine caring between us, especially at the very end, that seemed to wipe away all the negatives. And of course a deep sense of release for both of us. But I also haven't forgotten those negatives, and that will inform the way I live as well - with a sense of appreciation for the good in life (including my service to others), and also for my own ability to survive difficult times.

I'm coming around to the idea that what we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Let me repeat that. What we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Better to work at surrendering to the flow of it, like a good improvisation. Seriously. You have a generous spirit, and a valuable gift. I'm sure that many opportunities to give it are in the making for you. Grieve what has been lost, but by any and all means, move forward.

[tonym]

I'm sorry to hear this Paul, it seems like the real good guys on this board are going through some tough times, yourself included. I really don't know what to say apart from what I said to a neighbour a few years back; he came into the local shop one night and bought a bottle of whisky then proceeded to unload his dismay upon me about how his wife had just 'decided' that marriage wasn't for her. Kids were involved and he was stunned at the seemingly sudden turnabout. I said to him, look you're a good fella, you're in good health, there'll be loads of women who'd want you -- look on it as a fresh start.

I didn't mean this in any sort of flippant manner, but you really can't undo what is done, a good guy like yourself will find love again -- if you're the type to give it, you'll receive it once again, hopefully in the not to distant future.

Keep bouyant Paul, if you find it hard, let the folks here help, and I'm sure once the pain has gone away you'll find yourself enoying life again.

[connoisseur series500]

I'm coming around to the idea that what we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Let me repeat that. What we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Better to work at surrendering to the flow of it, like a good improvisation.

That's just it. We have no control. I'm still married yet I feel I have no control as to the final outcome.

This thread is pertinent to us all, whether we are divorced or still married. Our relationships are in a permanent state of becoming. Some will sunder; others will linger; and others will last. We are all in just different stages of the process, that's all.

[Rob C]

My divorce should be final this month, though we have been separated now for just over a year. I actually feel pretty good at this point--positive, optimistic (still a little nervous about the "new life", though). The best thing I did was to start seeing a good therapist. I got through the bad times much more quickly and healthily than I would have without that help, I'm sure. I was telling one of my friends about some of my ex-wife's "issues" and said, "It's ironic that of the two of us, I'm the one in therapy!" He laughed, but then said, "You know, not really, because it's just logical to get help if you know you need it. It's the rational thing to do. It doesn't make sense not to."

Just to share what I've found over the past year, what really made the difference was slowly taking more control over my own life, as opposed to sitting around feeling sorry for myself as I did for the first few months. In fact, though my wife had made the decision to separate, she never pulled the trigger on getting divorced, and in fact made some (half-hearted) overtures toward reconciliation. But by that time I realized that it wasn't going to work, and I initiated the divorce. And from that moment forward I stated feeling so much better. But it's all a process, and in fact, that's sort of how I look at the whole thing: as a process--it's not an end, it's a change, and change is possible to deal with.

It's not easy, but you'll get through the worst of it and probably come out better in some ways. It's a cliche to say "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger," but cliches don't come out of nowhere. I can say I really do feel like a stronger person after going through all the pain of the breakup.

Anyway, good luck, man!

[Soul Stream]

Hey Paul,

Sorry to hear this. The same thing happened to my brother 2 years ago. He was a school teacher and so was his wife....2 kids, dog. Then, one day she said she didn't love him and that it was over. Same scenario as yourself. He tried to make it happen, but she was having none of it.

He went through some dark times, for the most part because of the kids. However, now he's happier than I've seen him in many years.

It frightens me how women can brew for years on this subject and then one day give a guy the boot. The whole time him being clueless as to what's going on. Even though I feel I have a good marriage, I know the hammer could come down on an estrogen whim at any time.

Good luck Paul, hope things get better soon for you.

[Aggie87]

Very sorry to hear about your situation, Paul. It will get easier over time, as do all things. A change of location may be a good way to energize you and help you start over.

I was married for 8 years. I was 30 when I got married, and my wife was 28, so we weren't necessarily a young couple. But I think we rushed into the marriage without getting to know each other well enough, first. May have been a "biological clock" thing for both of us, wanting to settle down, have kids, and so forth. So I think we both had some blinders on with regards to the other person, not really seeing them as they were. As we began our family, we also began drifting apart. We didn't really have many common interests or things to talk about. After a while, it felt like we were roommates more than soulmates.

My divorce was final two years ago. We have two kids, and share joint physical custody, meaning they live with me for a week, with their mother for a week, and back and forth like that. We live close enough to each other now that its not too big a problem going back and forth for them, or too disruptive. As they get older we'll see how the situation works for them.

Personally, I'm alot happier now than during the last couple of years of my marriage. We considered staying together for the kid's sake, but ultimately decided it would be better for them to see us apart (and happy) rather than together (and miserable). I think we're better role models for them that way too.

[ghost of miles]

My situation was totally different from yours, Paul; with my wife's illness, decline, and eventual death (April 2005), our relationship became more caretaker/patient and even parent/child than husband and wife. It was a very difficult situation, with her incredible suffering and poor quality of life, and me just kind of hanging in there somehow. I had many dark days and often wished I was removed from the whole scenario. But, something kept me there until the last breath (literally), and from where I sit now, I have to say that I wouldn't trade what I went through for what I have gained. There were moments of deep beauty and genuine caring between us, especially at the very end, that seemed to wipe away all the negatives. And of course a deep sense of release for both of us. But I also haven't forgotten those negatives, and that will inform the way I live as well - with a sense of appreciation for the good in life (including my service to others), and also for my own ability to survive difficult times.

I'm coming around to the idea that what we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Let me repeat that. What we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Better to work at surrendering to the flow of it, like a good improvisation. Seriously. You have a generous spirit, and a valuable gift. I'm sure that many opportunities to give it are in the making for you. Grieve what has been lost, but by any and all means, move forward.

That's a beautiful post, Joe.

Hope we can hook up in Indy soon (best scenario: Organissimo gets a gig at Radio Radio!).

[Jim Alfredson]

What we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Better to work at surrendering to the flow of it, like a good improvisation. Seriously.

We can control how we react to situatons as they arrive. We cannot control other people's lives or actions or events that we do not create (some would argue that we help create every event that happens to us, but I'm not one of them). However, we can influence them.

I agree with your statement in principle, but there is an undercurrent of passivism in it that I don't necessarily agree with.

I try as hard as I can to take my head out of my own space (which is dominated by music) and wrap it around my wife's situations. Sometimes I fail miserably and she's very patient with me. I'm sure she's tired of hearing about my gigs, the inter-personal relationships between band members, etc. but she still asks. I need to listen more to her.

[Jazzmoose]

Damn, Paul. For once you've caught me completely joke free. Pardon my selfishness, but all I can think is I sure hope it doesn't happen to me! You have my sympathy, but unfortunately that's all I've got. This area sure isn't the place to move to find a job, let me tell you. Wow. Sure hope things work out for you!

[patricia]

It frightens me how women can brew for years on this subject and then one day give a guy the boot. The whole time him being clueless as to what's going on. Even though I feel I have a good marriage, I know the hammer could come down on an estrogen whim at any time.

I don't think that it's a matter of women brewing for years and then just suddenly giving their partner the boot.

Quite often the woman puts up with an untenable, to her, situation, hoping that it will change for the better.

Of course she should say what's bothering her.

Many times she isn't sure whether if she does say something, what she says will not be interpreted as PMS, or the estrogen talking and simply dismissed as nagging by her partner.

Many women just don't want to make waves if they aren't prepared to leave.

The leaving doesn't usually happen out of nowhere, although it may seem to.

Also, women and men leave marriages and long-term relationships for different reasons. For example, women will put up with infidelity, horrible intimate relations, even alcoholism before they will leave, if they have children.

That applies to other problems as well, if they think their partner doesn't listen to them.

Even a bad marriage may seem better than deciding to raise kids on your own.

So, they stay.

Their men will actually believe that their wives don't know about long-term infidelity just because they haven't told them.

Believe me, women ALWAYS know about cheating eventually.

They just choose, for whatever reason, to put up with it.

Bad sex by itself is not the cause of a marriage deteriorating.

It's more often a symptom of a general lack of communication.

Women usually don't want to totally shatter whatever calmness is in their marriage either.

So, quite often women will only leave a bad marriage after years, sometimes decades of burying their own unhappiness until they can actually survive on their own.

It's not always the snap decision that it may seem, but one that has been coming for many years.

Just because there are no fights doesn't mean that everything is fine.

To be sure, just hoping for change is not the same thing as actively trying to air out her problems with the relationship.

But, there are many men who just tune their partner out when she attempts to talk to them about feelings and her partner takes from that that her guy isn't interested in really talking to her.

This festers over several years of a marriage that is dying.

Many men don't talk to their partners except about their work, or the kids, or the household workings.

THEY DON'T LISTEN to subtle undercurrents and so the breakup, when it comes, is a total surprise to them.

The sudden end to a long-term relationship is a shock that cannot be healed by simply seeking out another partner to fill the void.

Take time for reflection.

Don't look for a replacement until you know that you are not choosing someone exactly the same as the one who left you.

I have friends who have married the same kind of person over and over, with the same results over and over.

Being on your own is not the worst thing that can happen to you.

Edited July 31, 2006 by patricia

[connoisseur series500]

It frightens me how women can brew for years on this subject and then one day give a guy the boot. The whole time him being clueless as to what's going on. Even though I feel I have a good marriage, I know the hammer could come down on an estrogen whim at any time.

I don't think that it's a matter of women brewing for years and then just suddenly giving their partner the boot.

Quite often the woman puts up with an untenable, to her, situation, hoping that it will change for the better.

Of course she should say what's bothering her.

Many times she isn't sure whether if she does say something, what she says will not be interpreted as PMS, or the estrogen talking and simply dismissed as nagging by her partner.

Many women just don't want to make waves if they aren't prepared to leave.

The leaving doesn't usually happen out of nowhere, although it may seem to.

Also, women and men leave marriages and long-term relationships for different reasons. For example, women will put up with infidelity, horrible intimate relations, even alcoholism before they will leave, if they have children.

That applies to other problems as well, if they think their partner doesn't listen to them.

Even a bad marriage may seem better than deciding to raise kids on your own.

So, they stay.

Their men will actually believe that their wives don't know about long-term infidelity just because they haven't told them.

Believe me, women ALWAYS know about cheating eventually.

They just choose, for whatever reason, to put up with it.

Bad sex by itself is not the cause of a marriage deteriorating.

It's more often a symptom of a general lack of communication.

Women usually don't want to totally shatter whatever calmness is in their marriage either.

So, quite often women will only leave a bad marriage after years, sometimes decades of burying their own unhappiness until they can actually survive on their own.

It's not always the snap decision that it may seem, but one that has been coming for many years.

Just because there are no fights doesn't mean that everything is fine.

To be sure, just hoping for change is not the same thing as actively trying to air out her problems with the relationship.

But, there are many men who just tune their partner out when she attempts to talk to them about feelings and her partner takes from that that her guy isn't interested in really talking to her.

This festers over several years of a marriage that is dying.

Many men don't talk to their partners except about their work, or the kids, or the household workings.

THEY DON'T LISTEN to subtle undercurrents and so the breakup, when it comes, is a total surprise to them.

The sudden end to a long-term relationship is a shock that cannot be healed by simply seeking out another partner to fill the void.

Take time for reflection.

Don't look for a replacement until you know that you are not choosing someone exactly the same as the one who left you.

I have friends who have married the same kind of person over and over, with the same results over and over.

Being on your own is not the worst thing that can happen to you.

Great post, Patty. Also very scary for me, becuase I don't disucss much with my wife. We act more like roommates than soulmates most of the time, but our marriage has also lasted 19 years (plus lived together two years before that.) Who knows how it will all end.

I side with Joe's comments. I am virtually helpless to control life. I can control the little things, but as you age, you realize how helpless we really are.

[Miles251]

Brotha' Paully.... I have nothing to say on this subject that I haven't stated in our welcomed weekly phone conversations. That said....even though you are going through the toughest of times right at the moment, I am seeing alot of love and tenderness towards you from this board. That is one of the most positive things that will come from this tragic personal time for you. Peace and love to you....until next Sunday....