BruceH Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 My old OJC sounds just fine... Same here. So much for 'upgrading.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 (edited) Why in the world, if there is a severe tape defect that develops since the last remastering job - do they not sample the offending segment (which may be as little as 10 seconds long, or 5 seconds, or whatever), and paste it into the new remaster (just that 5 or 10 seconds worth). The patch-job might not be perfect, but it would HAVE to be better than a full-blown sonic fuckup the size of a small tank. Seriously, why not?? I've not personally heard the new reissue in question - but it sounds like the results would have been better even if they had sampled those particular 5 or 10 seconds from a VINYL copy, and patched THAT in - instead of the spot where the tape got mangled. Edited August 15, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Can't beat the NYC or Bergenfield vinyl for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 Can't beat the NYC or Bergenfield vinyl for this one. Yes, but the price is Colossal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 Can't beat the NYC or Bergenfield vinyl for this one. Yes, but the price is Colossal! 'K2' it is then ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 (edited) Why in the world, if there is a severe tape defect that develops since the last remastering job - do they not sample the offending segment (which may be as little as 10 seconds long, or 5 seconds, or whatever), and paste it into the new remaster (just that 5 or 10 seconds worth). The patch-job might not be perfect, but it would HAVE to be better than a full-blown sonic fuckup the size of a small tank. Seriously, why not?? I've not personally heard the new reissue in question - but it sounds like the results would have been better even if they had sampled those particular 5 or 10 seconds from a VINYL copy, and patched THAT in - instead of the spot where the tape got mangled. Serious question: why couldn't (and didn't) they just patch in 5 or 10 seconds from an earlier mastering job -- the K2, if it's also such good sounding and very recent remaster? It would seem (at least to me) that to do otherwise, would be to willfully create an inferior product. It's not like they haven't done things like this before... The first (Japanese) version had the drop out as well. I had a copy and the flaw was explained in the notes. I believe later copies repaired it by patching from 2nd generation tapes. Edited August 16, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 My old OJC sounds just fine... Same here. So much for 'upgrading.' In general, I think the old OJC's had amazingly good sound for the time. I haven't found the upgrades of the OJC labels and Blue Note and Impulse! to be the stunning sonic revelations that some of the rock upgrades (Byrds and Spirit and Dylan come to mind especially, also the 2fer European versions of the Elektra stuff like Paul Butterfield and Tim Buckley and Judy Collins) have been. Probably due to the simplicity of the original recording (no overdubs, etc.), though I am no expect on the subject, especially in terms of the people on this board! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 Serious question: why couldn't (and didn't) they just patch in 5 or 10 seconds from an earlier mastering job -- the K2, if it's also such good sounding and very recent remaster? Serious answer: they are morons. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron S Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 In general, I think the old OJC's had amazingly good sound for the time. And in the case of many of them, for the present time. Four words: Shelly Manne Black Hawk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 My old OJC sounds just fine... Same here. So much for 'upgrading.' In general, I think the old OJC's had amazingly good sound for the time. I haven't found the upgrades of the OJC labels and Blue Note and Impulse! to be the stunning sonic revelations that some of the rock upgrades (Byrds and Spirit and Dylan come to mind especially, also the 2fer European versions of the Elektra stuff like Paul Butterfield and Tim Buckley and Judy Collins) have been. Probably due to the simplicity of the original recording (no overdubs, etc.), though I am no expect on the subject, especially in terms of the people on this board! I fully agree with your remark about the OJCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riverrat Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 There is a BMG version of the 20-bit for $9.99 HERE and another one that the seller says "has a different cover, but is the remaster" (may just not have the carboard sleeve shown in the picture, who knows, maybe ask the seller?) for $9.15 HERE There is also a JVC XRCD version for $18.99 HERE There also appear to be some copies available on GEMM. I was lucky enough to score a copy of the DCC version for a relatively affordable price awhile back- I agree it sounds great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 There was also a Prestige vinyl reissue of the album in 1964 with notes by Martin Williams and a cover photo by Don Schlitten. Prestige 7326... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 (edited) I have a DCC LP which sounds fine. I'm sure that someone has something that sounds better, or a playback system that sounds better. I'm just glad that Cliff Englewood started this thread because I hadn't listened to this music in quite some time, listened yesterday, and it sounded as good or better than ever. What more could I want? - Sonny at one of his peaks, fine Max, Doug Watkins and Tommy Flanagan. I'm happy that I was led back to the music. Like almost everyone else, I get crazy at times over sound quality. Case in point: I bought the DCC to replace a Prestige/Fantasy 2-fer some years back. I'm finding out (at least until the next time I get crazy) that as long as I have a CD or LP that sounds good, I should be happy with that. The music is the most important thing. But, as I say, I'm sure I'll get caught up in the craziness again at some point. I just hope that everyone else will get as much pleasure from listening to Saxophone Colossus as I did yesterday. P.S. - Haven't heard the RVG, but from hearing several others, I'm sure it sounds very fine, once you can get past the short tape problem. Edited August 17, 2006 by paul secor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 There was also a Prestige vinyl reissue of the album in 1964 with notes by Martin Williams and a cover photo by Don Schlitten. Prestige 7326... Thanks for that, brownie! There was a thread a year or so ago about albums with more than one cover, and I mentioned this one. Michael Fitzgerald was unfamiliar with it, and challenged me on it. I'm glad to see that I wasn't losing my mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 There was also a Prestige vinyl reissue of the album in 1964 with notes by Martin Williams and a cover photo by Don Schlitten. Prestige 7326... Thanks for that, brownie! There was a thread a year or so ago about albums with more than one cover, and I mentioned this one. Michael Fitzgerald was unfamiliar with it, and challenged me on it. I'm glad to see that I wasn't losing my mind! That's the cover I recall from my college's music library, my first exposure to this great session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Englewood Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Totally agree with Paul's point, I hadn't listened to this album in ages myself and was kicking myself for not having done so as I listened to the new RVG version, but isn't this always the way? You upgrade only to find that you should have listened to the old version more often. I must have had fond memories of it though as I usually don't upgrade unless it's something I totally love. The new version does sound very good, to my ears anyway, has a little more warmth that the 20 bit, it's just I was disapointed with the slight flaw. However I think it's interesting that it was also on an exsisting Japanese version, I mean, aren't those guys the so called experts in these matters, didn't they start this whole "bit" and "sound upgrade" madness in the first place?????????????? Anyway I think the point I'd like to make is that it's an essential piece of work whatever version you have. Now, what is the story with those JVC XRCD and Gold versions? I think I need to buy this album again as a sort of punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Englewood Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Heres a bigger picture of the alternative cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 There was also a Prestige vinyl reissue of the album in 1964 with notes by Martin Williams and a cover photo by Don Schlitten. Prestige 7326... The UK Stateside and German SABA editions from the 1960s also have that cover art, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Thanks to this forum I was able to: 1) Know to look for a copy of the 20-bit before it's extinct. 2) Find it at Borders' and get it for $10 with a coupon. It sounds great. Now here's a very weird thing I noticed: I imported it into iTunes, and I noticed that the separation between tracks is not quite right. About 1/2 a second from each tune is in the previous tune. This is only noticeable when you put it into iTunes. On my CD player, you don't hear it because one tracks goes to the next without transition (and when you look at the timings, you can't really see if it's happening because there's a few 'negative seconds' between the tunes). You hear it on iTunes because there's a slight pause between tracks. It's possible that the software is slightly off, but it's never done this to me before. Anyone else notice this? Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) Heres a bigger picture of the alternative cover. That's the version I bought (& still listen to). Those late 60s/early 70s Prestige reissues are still a treat for me, mostlly for the liners, but also for the covers. The liners, wow. It's one thing to write read about a dead man, another still to read (as on the OJCs) about a live man's latest album, but something else entirely to read about a live man's older recordings written from the perspective of how much things have (or haven't) changed, and what the hell is going on now with that player and/or the music in general. Most of those reissues had 20 or less years distance between recording and the reissues liners. The battles were still raging, and nobody knew for sure what the end result was going to be. Great reading! Edited August 18, 2006 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) I bought that LP for 99 cents in 1970 at Mays department store in Massapequa - Edited August 18, 2006 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Thanks to this forum I was able to: 1) Know to look for a copy of the 20-bit before it's extinct. 2) Find it at Borders' and get it for $10 with a coupon. It sounds great. Now here's a very weird thing I noticed: I imported it into iTunes, and I noticed that the separation between tracks is not quite right. About 1/2 a second from each tune is in the previous tune. This is only noticeable when you put it into iTunes. On my CD player, you don't hear it because one tracks goes to the next without transition (and when you look at the timings, you can't really see if it's happening because there's a few 'negative seconds' between the tunes). You hear it on iTunes because there's a slight pause between tracks. It's possible that the software is slightly off, but it's never done this to me before. Anyone else notice this? Bertrand. Yes. This is a problem with the K2 -- I noticed it on my ipod. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) Guy, Good to know it's not just my copy. Since you seem to understand what I'm talking about (I'm sure future posts will tell me just enjoy the music and shut up) and use iTunes, I'm curious: are there any other CDs that have this problem? I've loaded hundreds of other CDs, and the only other one with this problem was the iTunes-only version of George Russell's Jazz In The Space Age (possibly the original CD as well, I don't have it). And there it's only the first two tracks. On Saxophone, it's every track. One option is to join all the tunes and make Colossus one long 40-minute medley Bertrand. Edited August 18, 2006 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 The iPod problem would not exist if the player allowed for gapless playback, i.e. two subsequent tracks are played without interuption, like on a regular CD player. Then you won't notice the badly placed track markers. People have been requesting gapless playback on the iPod for some time already (I don't know the current status of this) http://www.petitiononline.com/13421509/petition.html Advanced users can also burn a CD-R from the disc, with corrected track markers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Guy, Good to know it's not just my copy. Since you seem to understand what I'm talking about (I'm sure future posts will tell me just enjoy the music and shut up) and use iTunes, I'm curious: are there any other CDs that have this problem? I've loaded hundreds of other CDs, and the only other one with this problem was the iTunes-only version of George Russell's Jazz In The Space Age (possibly the original CD as well, I don't have it). And there it's only the first two tracks. On Saxophone, it's every track. One option is to join all the tunes and make Colossus one long 40-minute medley Bertrand. I've never had this problem with any other CD. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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